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Debian GNU/Hurd 2013 image released - Page 5

post #41 of 49
^ The userland. Mushroom seems to think half of x lies in the kernel space.
post #42 of 49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

^ The userland. Mushroom seems to think half of x lies in the kernel space.

I really don't think he does. There's a lot of work that needs to be done before GNU userland will run on other kernels - it's not a copy and paste job. ABIs need to be written and graphics card drivers need to be ported. And then you have problems with "Linuxisms" in the userland that doesn't translate directly to Hurd's way of working (eg the way how Hurd uses multiple user IDs per process). And even when you've got all that in place, there's no guarantee that the damn thing will be stable enough to run (if your Xserver crashes - then you lose any open GUI apps)

So all mushroomboy was asking was a) if Xorg (etc) has been ported and b) whether it's stable enough to use as a desktop.
post #43 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

You listed off some pretty awesome examples there: Plan 9 (despite being the successor of UNIX) isn't POSIX. AROS is based on AmigaOS - which isn't POSIX. Windows is only POSIX if you install the likes of cygwin - so definitely not natively POSIX compliant, and ReactOS is a Windows clone so also not POSIX. In fact more of your examples weren't POSIX compliant than those that were.

I never said that they were POSIX compliant, I said could support POSIX. The intention was to mean either Natively, or by compatibility layer in order to utilize the same userspace that linux has by default. I never said it could be done without modification biggrin.gif.
The point of my post was mainly to show that there are many alternatives to just "linux" which has become the defacto "not windows".
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post #44 of 49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchtaydev View Post

I never said that they were POSIX compliant, I said could support POSIX. The intention was to mean either Natively, or by compatibility layer in order to utilize the same userspace that linux has by default. I never said it could be done without modification biggrin.gif.
That's a dumb statement to make because you could run any user land on top of any OS and make it behave any way you want - if we're going to talk about what's possible with modifications. The crux of the matter is that most of those examples are NOT natively POSIX. It's just hacks (which are often crappy) used to simulate a POSIX environment. And I'm not even convinced cygwin will run on ReactOS nor that any such compatibility layer exists for AROS to begin with - so some of your examples are still wrong in practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchtaydev View Post

The point of my post was mainly to show that there are many alternatives to just "linux" which has become the defacto "not windows".
Well thank you for pointing out the bloody obvious in a thread that was already making that same point to begin with (Hurd != Linux). rolleyes.gif
Edited by Plan9 - 5/27/13 at 3:16pm
post #45 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

^ The userland. Mushroom seems to think half of x lies in the kernel space.

I really don't think he does. There's a lot of work that needs to be done before GNU userland will run on other kernels - it's not a copy and paste job. ABIs need to be written and graphics card drivers need to be ported. And then you have problems with "Linuxisms" in the userland that doesn't translate directly to Hurd's way of working (eg the way how Hurd uses multiple user IDs per process). And even when you've got all that in place, there's no guarantee that the damn thing will be stable enough to run (if your Xserver crashes - then you lose any open GUI apps)

So all mushroomboy was asking was a) if Xorg (etc) has been ported and b) whether it's stable enough to use as a desktop.

port the GNU userland to Hurd? Hurd is the original kernel for GNU! I do get what your saying, it just seems impossible to me that someone, knowing how old Hurd is and it's intended purpose, could think it couldn't run x. All of the 'Linuxisms' in xorg are only recent, and there are little to no linuxisms in GNU. as for stability, if it couldn't run an xserver for a reasonable period of time then they wouldn't be making any kind of new images. It's not like x has to run for years on it- every few weeks or so I run into a problem with x that requires me to kill it, just as a windows user would reboot. I'm not saying its be good enough for daily use, Just that common sense should have been a simple desktop would work.
post #46 of 49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

port the GNU userland to Hurd? Hurd is the original kernel for GNU!
I know what Hurd is. I did start this thread after all :-P

Not all GNU code is *that* portable. That's a lot of Linuxisms in some projects (eg GNOME3). Plus not all of Debians userland is GNU to begin with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

I do get what your saying, it just seems impossible to me that someone, knowing how old Hurd is and it's intended purpose, could think it couldn't run x. All of the 'Linuxisms' in xorg are only recent, and there are little to no linuxisms in GNU. as for stability, if it couldn't run an xserver for a reasonable period of time then they wouldn't be making any kind of new images. It's not like x has to run for years on it- every few weeks or so I run into a problem with x that requires me to kill it, just as a windows user would reboot. I'm not saying its be good enough for daily use, Just that common sense should have been a simple desktop would work.
Youre making a great number of assumptions there mate. :-)
post #47 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

I really don't think he does. There's a lot of work that needs to be done before GNU userland will run on other kernels - it's not a copy and paste job. ABIs need to be written and graphics card drivers need to be ported. And then you have problems with "Linuxisms" in the userland that doesn't translate directly to Hurd's way of working (eg the way how Hurd uses multiple user IDs per process). And even when you've got all that in place, there's no guarantee that the damn thing will be stable enough to run (if your Xserver crashes - then you lose any open GUI apps)

So all mushroomboy was asking was a) if Xorg (etc) has been ported and b) whether it's stable enough to use as a desktop.

Thank you, you said it much better than I did. =) I was thinking API but yeah, ABI is more apt. While Xorg doesn't directly rely on the kernel, a lot of it's tools do. I'm well aware Plan9 understands this, just some of you might not. Things like udev need to be working, which is a part of those tools that relies on the kernel. A multitude of programs rely on the kernel to be working and communicate properly.

I think Plan9 said it best though. It isn't as easy as just re-compiling the code, this is a different kernel so expect those tools that your desktop to rely on to have to change. Who knows what that change does, it could very well break some of those tools. People don't like to do all that work, making sure things do what is intended. Since we already have a kernel, it's pushed aside due to how much work this project really entails.
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post #48 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

I really don't think he does. There's a lot of work that needs to be done before GNU userland will run on other kernels - it's not a copy and paste job. ABIs need to be written and graphics card drivers need to be ported. And then you have problems with "Linuxisms" in the userland that doesn't translate directly to Hurd's way of working (eg the way how Hurd uses multiple user IDs per process). And even when you've got all that in place, there's no guarantee that the damn thing will be stable enough to run (if your Xserver crashes - then you lose any open GUI apps)

So all mushroomboy was asking was a) if Xorg (etc) has been ported and b) whether it's stable enough to use as a desktop.

Thank you, you said it much better than I did. =) I was thinking API but yeah, ABI is more apt. While Xorg doesn't directly rely on the kernel, a lot of it's tools do. I'm well aware Plan9 understands this, just some of you might not. Things like udev need to be working, which is a part of those tools that relies on the kernel. A multitude of programs rely on the kernel to be working and communicate properly.

I think Plan9 said it best though. It isn't as easy as just re-compiling the code, this is a different kernel so expect those tools that your desktop to rely on to have to change. Who knows what that change does, it could very well break some of those tools. People don't like to do all that work, making sure things do what is intended. Since we already have a kernel, it's pushed aside due to how much work this project really entails.

That makes more sense. Although, for the record, udev is not a dependency of of x, any window manager, nor any major desktop (the only one I could be wrong about there is gnome). So, to anwser the question, yes, it works, yes all of xfce works, the majority of debian's package have been ported, the only limitations are it's lack of support for things like sata and more then a few gbs of ram, and it's instability.
post #49 of 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrl1357 View Post

That makes more sense. Although, for the record, udev is not a dependency of of x, any window manager, nor any major desktop (the only one I could be wrong about there is gnome). So, to anwser the question, yes, it works, yes all of xfce works, the majority of debian's package have been ported, the only limitations are it's lack of support for things like sata and more then a few gbs of ram, and it's instability.

Yeah, I just threw udev out there as the first thing I could think of that deals with the hardware. I can't actually think of anything X uses but they do exist, especially inputs. But glad to hear it has all that working, MUCH further than last time I checked. Might be worth putting in a VM then, too bad it's still lacking some very crucial hardware support. =(

Haven't had the opportunity yet to download it. My internet blows at the moment, though it's free. Cable company has forgot to turn it off, I'm not complaining though. =)
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