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[Various] GTX 780 Reviews - Page 211

post #2101 of 2543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

-As long as you push the volts to 1212mV most titans will hit 1189-1215MHz.

-I can beat the best 780 score that was at 1228MHz and on watercooling, by over 5% with a card that's at 1175MHz and stock air cooling. I think that means that it's not low single digits. So yes if you want a 780 that will beat even a mediocre titan (say 1163mhz max which would net you just around 80fps in valley), you would need a ~1250MHz+ 780 to even maybe get even with the Titan.

-most of the reviewers hitting any clocks have said it's "up-to" X MHz. Only when you're able to do full runs at a certain steady frequency does it mean that the cards actually clock that high
-That's not what I see in the Titan thread in general.

-80fps in Valley is what the top handful of TItans have done with months to accumulate high scores other than 3-5 higher at all, again out of probably hundreds and hundreds of Titan owners viewing the thread. So yes, I'd say that's about the best you can generally expect from one.

-1228mhz doesn't require watercooling for the 780. Several reviewers including here http://www.overclockers.com/evga-gtx-780-superclocked-acx-graphics-card-review show the card running at 1228mhz+ full-time during their testing on stock ACX cooling. So even with your "it has to be boosted the whole time, the final bench # doesn't matter" shift of the goalposts, it still fits:



EDIT: Guru3d mentions theirs running at 1254mhz for almost the full runs as well. But again, the argument isn't "is the TItan faster?", it's "is the Titan faster by any real amount" and the answer to that is a resounding no, even if you completely disregard price, at which point any current buyer getting a Titan would be... well, not so wise, unless running 4k UHD or large surround.
Edited by GoldenTiger - 5/29/13 at 12:37am
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post #2102 of 2543
And yet we have no cards like that on OCN yet? If most should be hitting 1240MHz range then why isn't there even a single one that can do that here yet?

And most Titan scores are lower because quite frankly, people don't know what they're doing. I'm sure I could tweak a 670 to be faster than most of the 680s, doesn't mean I could hold a candle to the people who know their stuff.

Same goes for the Titan thread, most people there are flashing to some weird bioses that they shouldn't be using in the first pace, not using the full 1212mV or something similar. Why are the most active people there hitting good clocks on theirs?

And this is what guru says about their ACX:
Quote:
as the boost clock will now render at 1200~1260 MHz depending on the power and temperature signature.

Their windforce card on the other hand only did a max of 1202Hz.
 
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post #2103 of 2543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

And yet we have no cards like that on OCN yet? If most should be hitting 1240MHz range then why isn't there even a single one that can do that here yet?

And most Titan scores are lower because quite frankly, people don't know what they're doing. I'm sure I could tweak a 670 to be faster than most of the 680s, doesn't mean I could hold a candle to the people who know their stuff.

Same goes for the Titan thread, most people there are flashing to some weird bioses that they shouldn't be using in the first pace, not using the full 1212mV or something similar. Why are the most active people there hitting good clocks on theirs?

And this is what guru says about their ACX:
Their windforce card on the other hand only did a max of 1202Hz.

We have some people here saying they've hit 1228+, but again, since you keep missing it: the card has been out for days including a holiday weekend, with under 10 people if I had to count having reported OC results.

The same would go for 780 owners then.

Same again.

Guru quotes the boost clock as "up to 1254" in their OC speed table. Regardless, the performance it puts out at that speed is great in the review. http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/evga_geforce_gtx_780_sc_acx_review,26.html They also show their overclock as 1254 screenshotted.
Edited by GoldenTiger - 5/29/13 at 12:55am
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post #2104 of 2543
And up-to means that it isn't actually running at that frequency all the time at all.... They say that in the quote I posted.

Some hitting 1228 =/= all except one hitting 1228-1240. So either reviews have cherry picked samples or OCNers also properly OC the memory which will negatively affect the core clock but still get better performance (and OCNers getting constant frequencies might also affect the situation).

And yes I know the same goes for the 780 users when it comes to people not knowing what they're doing. This is why I'm saying you should compare the scores at the top.
Edited by Alatar - 5/29/13 at 1:04am
 
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post #2105 of 2543
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

And up-to means that it isn't actually running at that frequency all the time at all.... They say that in the quote I posted.

Some hitting 1228 =/= all except one hitting 1228-1240. So either reviews have cherry picked samples or OCNers also properly OC the memory which will negatively affect the core clock but still get better performance.

And yes I know the same goes for the 780 users when it comes to people not knowing what they're doing. This is why I'm saying you should compare the scores at the top.

Except I had talked about the Overclockers.com review, you're the one who brought up Guru, and shifted the goalposts from "what the overclock is" to "it has to boost at peak 100% of the run" which wasn't the original argument. Also, the 780 thread has yet another guy who is able to Valley @ 1241.

The 780 owners' thread is starting to fill with people using the TI bios reaching 1228+ benching as the cards come in.

I am comparing the scores at the top, there.... all but a (literal) few bench at 81fps EDIT average (http://cdn.overclock.net/0/00/900x900px-LL-0010c301_Capture.jpeg) for slots 3 through 11. We don't have enough 780 data yet to say where they'll slot in for certain, as I've said this whole time.
Edited by GoldenTiger - 5/29/13 at 1:08am
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post #2106 of 2543
You were talking about the cards hitting that high frequencies in reviews. If it's just about overclockers.com the point is moot as a single card isn't really representative of anything.

There's 25 cards in the 780 owner club according to the OP and one has hit 1241MHz?

And if the best 780 scores count why don't the best Titan scores count? As you saw, there was already a 85fps score posted.

If we can't count the over 80fps titans then we might as well not count the over 74fps 780s... or something, it makes no sense. And you have to consider that the couple highest 780 scores are with driver tweaks while the Titan scores have yet to be updated to that by the users themselves.

And once again, this is valley. It shows smaller differences than gameplay reviews such as TPU or Anand. As I said earlier in this thread, assuming perfect clock scaling you'd need a 1350MHz+ 780 to match a 1200mhz titan in games due to the 13% clock for clock difference in 1600p gaming.
Edited by Alatar - 5/29/13 at 1:19am
 
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post #2107 of 2543
lol why are you so quick to judge a product that has barely been out a week when you were defending the titans poor overclocking in initial reviews urging people to be patient and wait for actual users to get their hands on them instead? Why not wait a month before being so confident in your statements. Titan has been out for a months now and has had many custom bioses come out for it to boost overclocks as much as possible and alot fo them are under water as well. Most of these 780s are all running on stock bioses.... And besides very few Titans pass the 1200mhz barrier with any real stability, the vast majority of them settle in the 1150mhz range and i still wonder if Murloke ever got his over 1060Mhz....
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post #2108 of 2543
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

lol why are you so quick to judge a product that has barely been out a week when you were defending the titans poor overclocking in initial reviews urging people to be patient and wait for actual users to get their hands on them instead? Why not wait a month before being so confident in your statements. Titan has been out for a months now and has had many custom bioses come out for it to boost overclocks as much as possible and alot fo them are under water as well. Most of these 780s are all running on stock bioses.... And besides very few Titans pass the 1200mhz barrier with any real stability, the vast majority of them settle in the 1150mhz range and i still wonder if Murloke ever got his over 1060Mhz....

That sums it up pretty well. As I keep saying, we don't have much of a sample size yet here. I too was defending the Titan with few OC results near its launch, and for the same reasons I'm defending the 780's small sample size.

EDIT: The only difference in my opinion now is that the 780 has made the Titan outmoded for all but large surround or 4k UHD, for all intents and purposes, due to the incredibly close performance and pricing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

There's 25 cards in the 780 owner club according to the OP
And if the best 780 scores count why don't the best Titan scores count? As you saw, there was already a 85fps score posted.
.
@Alatar, by the time you're splitting hairs over 1-3fps on a high number, that already makes the argument for me: they are negligibly different so far. As I said, slots 3-11 (all Titans) average 81fps between them and are all within ~2-2.5fps of eachother. Those are the cream of the crop Titans, to boot. I said I have seen under ~10 OC results in that thread, not people posting pictures of their cards. Give a month and we may very well see the top of the chart fall under a 780 with some great custom BIOS as the Titan currently claims its throne with on the absolute best one ever posted. I'm not saying it *WILL* happen, but it is a possibility here.
Edited by GoldenTiger - 5/29/13 at 1:34am
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post #2109 of 2543
Page-o-text. This (edit:that) has to be the highest word count of any page in any thread on this site.
     
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Originally Posted by GoldenTiger View Post

That sums it up pretty well. As I keep saying, we don't have much of a sample size yet here.
@Alatar, by the time you're splitting hairs over 1-3fps on a high number, that already makes the argument for me: they are negligibly different so far. As I said, slots 3-11 (all Titans) average 81fps between them and are all within ~2-2.5fps of eachother. Those are the cream of the crop Titans, to boot. I said I have seen under ~10 OC results in that thread, not people posting pictures of their cards. Give a month and we may very well see the top of the chart fall under a 780 with some great custom BIOS as the Titan currently claims its throne with on the absolute best one ever posted. I'm not saying it *WILL* happen, but it is a possibility here.

And those Titan's are without driver tweaks. Those tweaks give you the extra 2 fps or so. The best 780 scores on the other hand will be rolling in with the tweaks. Give it some time also for the Titan side, for people to get scores with tweaks included. As I said, I can get around 83fps with 1200MHz Titan with the tweaks. 1200MHz is not uncommon.

And to reach the top of the chart with a 780 you would need over a 10% improvement from the absolute best 780 at the moment. There was also a score posted by another 780 user at 1251MHz and that one only got 76fps. From that it would be almost a 14% climb up.

I'm not saying it can't happen but it wont happen without LN2.

And still, since it's apparently about gaming/real life perf (since the few fps doesn't matter) the Titan has a bigger advantage in gaming benches according to the reviews. I calculated a clock for clock difference of 13% from TPU which was one of the reviews showing smaller differences than many others.
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Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

lol why are you so quick to judge a product that has barely been out a week when you were defending the titans poor overclocking in initial reviews urging people to be patient and wait for actual users to get their hands on them instead? Why not wait a month before being so confident in your statements. Titan has been out for a months now and has had many custom bioses come out for it to boost overclocks as much as possible and alot fo them are under water as well. Most of these 780s are all running on stock bioses.... And besides very few Titans pass the 1200mhz barrier with any real stability, the vast majority of them settle in the 1150mhz range and i still wonder if Murloke ever got his over 1060Mhz....

I'm only defending with as much certainty as GoldenTiger is saying the perf difference is nil....

The reason I was saying the things I said about the Titan OC reviews was because they did not represent the real world OC results for OCNers. That was all due to the power limits.

The reason Titan got so much out of custom BIOSes was due to the higher power consumption. The 780 out there seem to not be affected that much by that and the benefit you get is mostly unlocking that 1212mV voltage range for those that don't already have it.

Murlocke also got the go-ahead to RMA his since they were defective...
 
Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
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Benching
(17 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
[i7 5960X @ 4.8GHz] [Rampage V Extreme] [Titan 1400MHz (1500MHz bench)] [Various] 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
[250GB 840EVO +2x SpinpointF3 1TB RAID0] [LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change] [XSPC X2O 750 pump/res] [Monsta 360 full copper + EK XT 360 + XT 240] 
MonitorPowerCaseAudio
[Crossover 27Q LED-P 1440p+ASUS 1200p+LG 1080p] [Corsair AX1200] [Dimastech Easy v3.0] [Sennheiser HD558s] 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
FX 8320, FX 8350, Phenom II x2 555BE i7 3930K, i7 860, i7 4770K, 68x Celeron D CVF, commando, 2x RIVE, Z87X-OC Asus 4870x2, Sapphire 4870 
GraphicsGraphicsGraphicsGraphics
2x 5870, 5850, 5830, 5770 2x 3870x2, 3870 GTX Titan, GTX 480, GTX 590 GTX 285, GTX 260, 4x 9800GT, 8800GTX 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
4x4GB vengeance, 2x4GB predatorX, 2x1GB OCZ DDR2 Intel X25-M 80GB LD PC-V2 SS Phase Change OCN Marksman 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
2x old tek slims (GPU) Various watercooling stuff win7, winxp AX1200 
Case
test bench / cardboard box 
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