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Belial's Comprehensive Guide to 7950s! - Page 2

post #11 of 311
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Originally Posted by Belial View Post

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Originally Posted by stubass View Post

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Originally Posted by Belial View Post

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Originally Posted by stubass View Post

nice read +1 to you good sir.
i do have a qyestion about Asus DCII cards.. what is the diference between TOP and non-TOP cards?

Sometimes the retailer forgets to add 'TOP" to the description.

ok, maybe i didnt ask properly lol, are TOP cards have a better binned GPU on them? is that even possible for manufactures to bin GPU's?

PS: as a susgestion maybe add links to the cards manufacture page and/or something about the outputs on the cards

There's only a single 7950 model (and 2 versions of that model), you can check it on Asus' website. They are all Asus 7950 DC2-VX-TOPs. I'm not sure why you think some asus 7950s are non-tops?

Manufacturer web pages are pretty worthless and the outputs of the cards, I don't think people care about that and it's pretty easy to see. Is anyone actually choosing one 7950 over another based on the outputs? Why would you have a tri-monitor set-up but not have 2 displayports? Maybe this is just me, I've just never even cared to look at the outputs of a card before, they all come with so many adaptors anyways that what difference it makes if it doesn't have hdmi, it has an hdmi to dvi adaptor, etc.

ok i see your point about manufacture sites and outputs.

anyway the reason i asked about non-TOP and TOP is the naming convention and on Asus website.
HD7950-DC2T-3GD5-V2
http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/HD7950DC2T3GD5V2/#specifications
HD7950-DC2-3GD5-V2
http://www.asus.com/Graphics_Cards/HD7950DC23GD5V2/#specifications

could it be the only difference is the clock speed out of the box
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post #12 of 311
Thread Starter 
^ omg that is incredibly confusing. Don't think I've ever heard a difference. Both are V2 too, so they clearly came out after v1 (ie it wasnt like they had 2 different models at sale at once, or 3 different models).
Quote:
Everything you said about the gigabyte 7950 is wrong. Regardless of VRM cooling or not, my VRMs run cool. Even with the voltage cranked over 1.25 the VRMs are only a couple C hotter than my core. You just simply read in alot of other reviews "Ohh, those Gigabyte cards dont have VRM cooling" and you repeated it here. If Gigabyte 7950s have such horrible VRM cooling, how is it possible that mine never gets hot? Must be black magic.

Whoa, hold your horses buddy.

You saying your VRM runs cool is a totally subjective comment. Your VRM does NOT run cool compared to heatsinked VRMs, or higher quality VRMs like on the Asus DC2. This is exactly the kind of comments I was critical of in my guide, and the source of much of the misinformation out there. I'm glad that in your personal setting, at 1.25v your VRM is cool, but this won't hold true for everyone at every overclock. I don't need to read anything in reviews, it's obvious if you are running a reference VRM with no heatsinks, it's going to run hot.

Yours not getting hot is simply a case of ambient temps, case ventilation, your clocks and voltages, and the programs you load. That you run cool on Crysis 3 means nothing to anyone, come back when you use a GPGPU program for a week straight and tell me what your VRM temps are then in a closed case.

Anecdotal evidence of a single card without comparing it to other models in apples to apples comparisons is NOT useful.
Quote:
You also included your personal experience with a Sapphire card with a poorly mounted cooler. Your bad experience doesnt mean a thing when talking about Sapphire cards a a whole. Sapphire makes excellent cards and they are very highly recommended for this. Just because you happened to get one-out-of-a-thousand that had a loose cooler doesnt mean you need to suggest to people that they may need to hit their cooler with a hammer to make it quiet.

Hardly. I've owned 2 sapphire 7950s, I've remounted and replaced the TIM on them multiple times, and my temps are the same as every other sapphire dual-x under the same conditions. Yea, my card only hits 58*C on heaven, great, but heaven is useless as a heat test. I only hit 76*C during furmark, great, but furmark isn't nearly as hot as a week of a GPGPU on intensity 20. Great, you only hit 65 on intensity 13, I only hit 59 on intensity 13. I assure you, my card is properly mounted just fine. Tell me what you are using for temp testing, and I'll run it with the same clocks and I'll have the same temps as you.

Sapphire hardly makes excellent cards, it's crap. Elpida RAM, no memory voltage, cheapo 7950 PCB, it's the very definition of a bad 7950. However the cooler is pretty good. I'm 100% certain that if I was running a TF3 or DD, i'd be hitting over 95*C on the same clocks and settings on my GPGPU program. If you don't know what GPGPU program I'm talking about, butt out, because it's well known to cause temps significantly higher than anything else.
Quote:
All you had to say about the HIS IceQ Turbo was that it looked like a reference card? You also rated its cooler as "weak". Other properly done reviews from reputable sites actually show the HIS IceQ Turbo's cooler to outperform ALMOST ALL other 7950 coolers.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-7950-review-benchmark,3207-10.html

Tomshardware is reputable?

I could care less what a IceQ Turbo on 1.03v, which is significantly less than the 1.25v of the other models.

Edit: Better review: http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/his-hd7970-iceqx%C2%B2-turbo-his-hd7950-iceq-review/20/

His IceQTurbo ships with significantly lower voltage than any other card, here it is at 1.06v! And still, it is significantly hotter than the HIS IceQx2 by a massive 5*C, despite the IceQx2 having 1.105v!

It's sad to see so many smart people like yourself duped by bad reviews! And then they go on and spread misinformation like, oh, the His IceQ Turbo is a good and quiet cooler because Tomshardware says so! Even though it uses a full 0.2v less than any other card and the fan is run at half the speed.

Feel free to apologize for being wrong any time. I'm a patient man.
Edited by Belial - 5/26/13 at 12:01am
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post #13 of 311
yeah that is why i asked, tho now i look further it seems the HD7950-DC2T-3GD5-V2 might have been discontinued atleast at newegg
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121489
tho some amazon sellers and eBay sellers have some, i guess it probably is moot nowadays.
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post #14 of 311
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Ok. So my VRM temperature and others that have posted their GPUz screenshots is "purely subjective", but you reading somewhere that "Gigabyte Windforce 7950s dont have VRM cooling" is evidence that they get too hot? That just doesnt make any sense.

I said the Gigabyte WF3 is more susceptible to coil whine and basically VRM overheating than other models. The VRM WILL get hotter than other models in the same settings. Just because it doesn't for you, means nothing.

7950 is a hot card. All 7950 models run hot, all 7950s have hot VRMs, all models. The Gigabyte WF3 is simply a little hotter, more susceptible to overheating VRMs and coil whine, due to a lack of a VRM heatsink, weaker fans, and standard quality VRM. If you can prove either empirically (ie gigabyte uses X phase which is better than Y phase) or comparatively (my sapphire sitting right next to me) that the case is otherwise, I'll be happy to edit, but you saying "oh my VRM runs cool" is absolutely absurd. I don't give a darn what your VRM temps are when you game, VRMs don't overheat just because of gaming.
Quote:
A guide/review needs to be objective and informed, this is neither.

Right, but you saying "My unheatsinked, standard quality VRM doesn't overheat so therefore the VRM is better than any other 7950's VRM!" is? You are a troll, get out of here. Until you can give me a shred of reason to believe that the Gigabyte 7950's VRM runs cooler than any of it's competitors, butt out. Seriously, every single 7950 is susceptible to coil whine and overheating VRMs, I don't care that because it works for you, it must be true for everyone.
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post #15 of 311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post


I could care less what a IceQ Turbo on 1.03v, which is significantly less than the 1.25v of the other models.

Edit: Better review: http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/his-hd7970-iceqx%C2%B2-turbo-his-hd7950-iceq-review/20/

His IceQTurbo ships with significantly lower voltage than any other card, here it is at 1.06v! And still, it is significantly hotter than the HIS IceQx2 by a massive 5*C, despite the IceQx2 having 1.105v!

It's sad to see so many smart people like yourself duped by bad reviews! And then they go on and spread misinformation like, oh, the His IceQ Turbo is a good and quiet cooler because Tomshardware says so! Even though it uses a full 0.2v less than any other card and the fan is run at half the speed.

Feel free to apologize for being wrong any time. I'm a patient man.

So the Toms Hardware review I posted is a "bad review" because it demonstrates my point, but the Kit Guru review you posted is a "good review" because it demonstrates yours? Thats a foolish game to play. Here is another review that flys in the face of what you are saying.

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/his_radeon_hd_7950_iceq_turbo_review,8.html
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/his_radeon_7950_x_iceq_review,7.html

Thats strange, because these reviews from Guru of 3d show the two cards to be the same temperature. I understand they are separate tests, but I think the fact that they came out the same on their test rig puts the difference between the two in the margin of error.

Surely your opinions outweigh 3dGurus findings though. So now both Tom's Hardware and Guru Of 3D are both horrible disreputable review sites because they show results contrary to your opinions.
Edited by RX7-2nr - 5/26/13 at 12:30am
post #16 of 311
Thread Starter 
No, because everyone knows TH is a joke... I didn't think anyone around here still took them seriously. You're the first person I've seen praise them lol.

Um... you might want to cherrypick a little better, the guru3d article you posted (wow, you managed to find a site who does worse GPu reviews than TH!) supports my point, not yours. Showing the IceQ Turbo having the exact same temps as a 2-fan model with 1.15v and a higher overclock literally just proves my point.... not yours...

It's simple physics. A single fan will never beat 2 fans, radial fans always have ~1/2 the CFM of a normal fan.
Quote:
So now both Tom's Hardware and Guru Of 3D are both horrible disreputable review sites because they show results contrary to your opinions.

No... they are terrible review sites because they do bad reviews. It's pretty obvious. Testing various GPUs with varying core and memory clocks, voltages, and automatic fan profiles as a comparison of heatsinks, not showing GPU performance when overclocked, not taking apart the cards and comparing PCBs, memory chips, VRMs, heatsinks, and controllers... it's a terrible review.

Just like any motherboard review that doesn't remove the VRM heatsinks is a bad review, any GPU review that doesn't remove the heatsink, is a bad review. I want to know which card is the best, and if you were to follow the TH or GURU3D articles, you wouldn't come any closer to knowing anything about these cards. You wouldn't know the XFX DD is louder and hotter than any other model. You wouldn't know that the Sapphire uses a cheap plastic and rattles. You wouldn't know the Gigabyte WF3 is susceptible to coil whine, that the Asus DC2 V1 has mounting issues, that the PCS+ has no memory voltage, that the TF3 has extremely loud fans (well TH sorta lets you know about the latter).

These reviews don't tell me anything useful about the cards, and just say every card is awesome A++! They, like most reviews sites, just say every card is awesome so they can get more cards to review from happy manufacturers. When I first started to review products, certain companies tried to get me to do the same thing.

It's called payola:

http://www.dailytech.com/Pay+to+Play+Uncovering+Online+Payola/article7510.htm
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post #17 of 311
Thread Starter 
Gudu3d article

HIS IceQ Turbo: 900mhz//1250mhz @ 1.03v
HIS IceQx2: 950mhz//1250mhz @ 1.25v

At these settings, both cards are the same...

This is exactly why so many hardware reviews are so useless and misleading. People like yourself are duped into thinking false conclusions, like the His IceQ Turbo must be a good cooler, even though it's physically impossible for a card with same heatsink fin surface area, only a single fan with HALF the CFM of ONE of the TWO fans used on the opposing heatsink. People just plain forget common sense and blindly believe misguiding articles, it's insane!

This is why I crusade against TH/G3D! We must not let anyone else's brains melt as far as young RX7s has! We all know he is too far gone in the dark side of vitriol and hate to ever stand corrected, that he will be forever lost, and will keep thinking that somehow the Turbo is a better cooler than a heatsink with 2 fans. That somehow his self worth is tied to how much useless information on graphics cards he knows (useless as in it's all useless, not saying him specifically here), that he will never apologize or thank me for providing him with knowledge, that instead it's somehow a Me vs Him mentality rather than all of us sharing in knowledge, and that we are all winners here

Sure RX7, makes total sense that HIS is the only brand with a 'super reference' card and every other manufacturer has these significantly more expensive, premium cards, and none of them have the same 'super reference' design. HIS is just smarter than MSI, Asus, Gigabyte, etc, deciding to use 'turbo reference' card. That's why they sell the HIS IceQx2 at a higher price, because it's a weaker cooler! Totally logical!
Edited by Belial - 5/26/13 at 1:17am
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post #18 of 311
Alright. So all review sites are bad because they are getting paid to say good stuff. Everyone should just listen to Belial, who only has experience with one 7950 that he should have RMAd when he first got it.

Seems legit.
post #19 of 311
Thread Starter 
Single card with a fan that's half the CFM of just one of the two fans on the other card, runs at the same temp when it's at 900mhz//1.03v vs 950mhz//1.25v, is somehow better than it, even though every single other aftermarket card uses a 2x fan model.

Seems legit.

All it seems like you are doing is trolling with snarky comments. You come in here to say the Turbo is a what, a good card? Okay, sure? Are you trying to say it's better than the other 7950 models? Total horsefish, every single other review site besides toms says otherwise and that's with the card at 1.03v... every other card is shipped out with 1.15-1.25v. Kind of a big difference. That's the problem with many big name review sites, they fail to mention this. You don't think that's relevant? Or am I just the jerk here?

Yea, fudge me. I'm such an b-hole because I put up a comprehensive review posting information that's actually relevant. Just go pork myself right!

Then, your 2nd comment is that my claims on the 7950 are wrong because... the one you are using is fine? Really? No one cares that your VRM doesn't overheat in your dinky games, some people actually use their graphics cards (ahem, people I'm actually directing this guide towards). Maybe you should tell the hundreds of users who've reported widespread VRM coil whine and blow outs on the windforce.An issue that got so bad, Gigabyte started voltage locking the cards . Is the Gigabyte 7950 VRM 'good'? Sure. It's 'good'. But compared to every other 7950 model, which uses VRM heatsinks or a higher quality VRM? No, sorry, the Gigabyte 7950 comes in 2nd place (only to the XFX DD).

You might as well claim the 7950 XFX is a good card because yours is running just fine. What a joke!
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post #20 of 311
I dont see why you keep going on and on about the card's voltage. The voltage is what it is at stock. Are you suggesting that the HIS IceQ Turbo is a bad card because it pulls off equal clocks with a lower voltage and in turn a lower heat output? Thats silly. If the card can do the stock clocks at 1.03, good job. If the other card needs 200mv more to get 50mhz more on the core, that is NOT a plus.

To mirror that- Are you going to argue that certain Haswell 4770ks with a VID of 1.3v that reach 50C are superior, when other 4770ks with a VID of 1.18 hit 36C? Are you going to argue that the stock voltage is in-proportionate to the temperature and the higher VID is better? Ill take the 1.18v any day.

I think you feel that Im repping the Gigabyte just because I have one. Im not. Im simply stating my experience with it. I have nothing but great things to say about this card. It runs at 30% fan speed at idle and is completely inaudible. Ive got it overclocked farther than most 7950s will go, and it still doesnt get into danger temperatures when with my max fan speed being 75%. At 75% fan speed it is loud, but show me a 4000 rpm (it hits 4000rpm at 75%) fan that is silent and Ill send you $1000. My VRMs are also cooled perfectly fine, contrary to your opinion. Regardless of this card having heatsinked VRMs, it cools them fine. I dont care how it does it, but it does. With a 25C ambient temperature and decent case airflow, my VRMs reach a maximum of 65C, 2-3C hotter than my core. This is with my card very far overclocked. Other people that have posted GPUz screenshots back this up. The Gigabyte 7950s also offer a 3 year warranty while many other manufacturers offer 2, something you didnt mention at all.

If I had an MSI Twin Frozr or HIS IceQ that performed similarly, Id say the same.

You shouldnt include your bitcoin mining "business" (lol) into this at all, because almost none of your target audience is going to be doing it. The vast majority of people reading this are going to be looking for a card for gaming.

I do give you props for making a guide. I just think that some of the things you included just dont make sense. Some of the information is based on your opinions, some is completely incorrect. If you are going to guide people's purchase, you should be
Edited by RX7-2nr - 5/28/13 at 1:22pm
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