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[V2] Microsoft: "We Aren't Using Kinect To Snoop." - Page 17

post #161 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post

The whole point is that no one is listening. No one is watching with this thing and it doesn't stay on 24/7. No one will pay any attention to you unless you give them a reason (which I know for a fact is a lot more difficult than you would think). Why do I say that, you might ask? It is simple really, people are believing that this thing is watching what they are doing and is able to analyze possible recordings automatically which isn't true. There is absolutely no possible way to move, store, and analyze this data at any real scale for everyone. Yes they could do it on a one by one basis but why would they? There are currently no models that can even begin to sort through this information automatically even if it was possible to collect it. This is still a business so they will not do anything if it doesn't increase revenue.

If it came to a matter of national security there is a whole different set of protocols that are placed into action on any given threat assessment. Those protocols include the use of equipment far more advanced than a glorified web cam. While somewhat technically possible to take control of the thing from outside there just isn't a point. If a government or agency wants to spy or snoop on someone they will. There is nothing that can be done about it and for sure the xbox will neither help nor hinder that process. The same types of people who believe this thing is able to collect usable information are the ones who think there are satellites that can see through walls and follow people in real time any where in the world. It just is not entirely possible.

All this is predicated on the idea that individuals are holding themselves as important to a company. That company could not care less about a individual. The companies want to know what we do that will make them money. Trying to get that information from an audio video source that is what most people are having an issue with is not really possible. They are going to get the most amount of information with the least amount of effort. Your music, movie, TV, and searches through your xbox live account is a much better source of information.

I'll be the first to say I would not want to be watched anywhere inside my home. With that in mind and my knowledge on the capabilities of this system I wouldn't have a problem letting one inside my home. Now if I see some major breakthrough in machine learning visualizations where a semi-intelligent AI come close to being able pull off and replicate the type of work I do then yea I'll think about unplugging when not in use. I'll also cross my fingers in hopes that I was the one to develop that breakthrough. It is kind of a holy grail for people in my research area and we are not really close to it yet.

Holy wall of text Batman! I apologize for that. Writing a dissertation and multiple journal publications has fused my brain to fingers for typing.


I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that you are as of today and tomorrow correct looking at individual physical mediums. I believe like you and everyone else here that one day (xboxone day lol) technology we have now will be merged so much so that we will have lost all privacy and any form of self believed freedom (obviously we are not free on any soil on earth as to move around earth requires a passport so we are not free to enjoy the earth as our own) this will happen when one day you walk past a street projection (the ones they are trialling in new york) and your favorite icecream pops up mined from your kinect / ps4 eye / Smart TV camera (watch how all tv's from 2015 will have cameras that have to be on! il come back to this thread shall I ) I dont want that knowledge public, not for the benefit it might bring but for the simple fact of sharing what I deem is private and not.. such an easy concept fella.

Now I will go off on a tangent but kinect is a tiny portion of the massive inroads governments and corporations have made on our daily lives using technology (for good = medical for bad = bombs and control systems). We are not important in the scheme of things is your case point. I am not important... my fellow man is not important.. I agree 100% that you are an unimportant item in a collective which has its own deeply sinister implications. The categorization of human beings has been going on for centuries and some times the bad guys win .

kinect is 1small new item on the integrating technology landscape. the phone is another, the television / film / radio format is another still in its own propaganda ways. The exploitation of the once free Internet is another using social media to oblivion. The constricting tax system, the demoralizing work systems we are being farmed into as the machines get the best jobs, the road system once free is now being looked towards being controlled by automated Google cars to ferry people to and from their mundane work etc.. all this stuff is needed ? I love tech when its used for good and for fun and I see kinect as the opposite .. it is used for DRM, and for control. This is not to say to remove this technology, but to regulate and allow people their fought for freedoms.



off topic rant
The long view as Is starting to be recognized by many What is happening here is an integration of humanity into a singularity of controlled subjects. If you put pieces of the puzzle together thats where it is now! let alone tomorrow. These are the tools of the men who would be your master. give it 10 years my friend.. or dont give them the satisfaction and make it 20

Edited by Pip Boy - 5/29/13 at 7:13am
post #162 of 289
I think "spying" concerns are heavily exaggerated but MS has patents that would allow kinect to essentially monitor who is watching what.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/139706-microsofts-new-kinect-patent-goes-big-brother-will-spy-on-you-for-the-mpaa

Between those patents - even if they're not implemented - and the requirement that Kinect must be plugged in to operate an XBO are reason enough to be discouraged by this new console.
post #163 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by revro View Post

no problem i see you are nice guy, but come on. once damage is done its done. just yesterday group of 4 cops was busted in my country for putting false drugs to peoples cars and then blackmailing them for money as possession is 4-10years in my country. in most of the world console would be in livingroom where most talking happens, and if tv goes over xbox you can listen to what people say about news and so on. so yeah livingroom is the place for listening device to be.

This is one of those cases where I have to say that stuff like this happens no matter you do. That is just one of those unfortunate events that are terrible. That does happen here as well but I would not call it common place. As far as talking in the living room that is a mundane activity. For the most part you wouldn't learn anything from listening in on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revro View Post

how else are you to get better data than video from xbone in livingroom? i mean mobiles are usually pointed to top with their camera so you can get only audio feed from them as video would be unusable. anyway you dont have to record everything for analysis, just run randomized recording: record 1 minute out of every console and then analyze it via computers for voice or video patterns. the resources needed would decrease but you would still get enough information to analyze. ou boy when did i become an evil genius xD

Better ways include thermal imaging, acoustic monitoring, wire tapping, and so on. Possible to do that but not practical. At least as it pertains to the US. This will likely be very different in other countries but even within that Microsoft isn't about to go out of their way for foreign police to listen and watch people. So possible but not practical really.

As far as snippet recording to reduce data processing requirements it really relates back to a special form of information theory. Audio and video tends to become nonsensical when sampled in bursts. If presented with the option of 10 one minute blocks of a conversation or one 10 minute block of conversation it is better to choose the single 10 minute block. To visual what I'm saying imagine a jigsaw puzzle with small random samples you end up with little blocks that fit together but can really see the what it all means. So instead you would choose to have a whole corner of the image. You have a better idea of what it is about but don't know the extents.

The problem of big data is still present though. If you tried to create a database with this data you will only get as far as creating a unstructured database. Unstructured databases are not sortable and while they can be queried they can not be mined for information. You would not be able to just analyze the database and get new information from it. It is too disorganized and contains billions upon billions of unique entries. You could set a super computer to this task and would probably never see any useful information in a humans life time. Now on the other hand you can query it for specific information. This assumes you know the path to get to the answer in the first place. Say I wanted to see what people like to eat for breakfast. If you just turned a supercomputer loose on that type of database you would never find out. However I could ask for information on food, and then from that selection I could ask for meals, and from there I could ask about breakfast. I knew what I wanted and I found a path to it. The tricky part is different paths that should end at the same answer usually don't. BTW the breakfast analogy is a really simplified example. In real searches there would be hundreds of stop points and use of metrics to find optimal paths from neural networks or something similar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revro View Post

i am running win7 desktop without microphone or webcamera, android phone is running on unused gmail address and i dont use any data program, just my wifi" which has name hidden and is turned off 95% of time. PS: my employer taught me that i am not paranoid but that i have great qualification for risk management smile.gif
MS is the same company that is visiting links used in skype conversations, why do they do that? smile.gif how do we in Europe dont live anonymously? cause we have personal id cards?
they would do it because theres always money to be made by fleecing taxpayers and call it increasing security. CCTV system in london for example costs dozens of milions and helped solve only few dozen minor crimes.

best
revro

Compared to the US for the most part European countries allow for much more invasive searches and monitoring. For the most part it is just a cultural difference. We tend to hold tight to our freedoms quite strongly but not so much in other areas. Being smart about computer usage will prevent most snooping attempts. If anything you should be a little paranoid using public wi-fi. As far as Microsoft making money that is completly true. Watching and listening to people for commercial purposes at this point in time would cost more than it would make. They can and will get the information other ways.
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post #164 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post


Compared to the US for the most part European countries allow for much more invasive searches and monitoring. For the most part it is just a cultural difference. We tend to hold tight to our freedoms quite strongly but not so much in other areas. Being smart about computer usage will prevent most snooping attempts. If anything you should be a little paranoid using public wi-fi. As far as Microsoft making money that is completly true. Watching and listening to people for commercial purposes at this point in time would cost more than it would make. They can and will get the information other ways.

Key phrase: at this time.

If, say, the FBI came into your place and was like "hey, we're just going to leave this camera and mic here. They are on and recording 24/7," would you be cool with that? The last thing I'm worried about is what technical limitations MS may or may not be subject to.

Agree with your other points.
    
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post #165 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post

Ok so I will give some of a reality check on these things. I will start with I don't think the Kinect should be mandatory and games cannot be re-sold on this platform. That being said there are quite a few fallacies and rampant paranoia from this stuff. I am going to present a logical thought process for you to think about.

First realize you are not special. No one is watching or listening to you. Second think about how many people are playing on a xbox throughout the entire world at any given time. How much data would that be? I promise you that would be a staggering amount of data. Moving from there how do you think that information is analyzed? Computer vision and classification. Do you have any idea how hard that is? Each room a kinect is in is a completely different environment. Object recognition rules are not universal. A person is easy to see because of two things. For the most part we all have a shape not found elsewhere. We also do this thing called moving the whole reason the thing works in the first place is because it detects movement. Get a blow up doll in front of the thing with strings to move it and the kinect will think it is a person.

I will now explain why that information is largely useless. Information the kinect could collect is a very unambiguous. It is unstructured data. That means it would be very difficult to learn from. A analogy I posted in a different thread explains the case. It would be similar to being put into the library of congress and told to learn something you didn't already know. Where would you even start? Now on the other hand you could be told to find information on how TVs work. You know what you are looking for now so that narrows your search range but it is still very difficult. You can teach a computer to identify an object from one singular image. It will get be able to find that object easily for that image. Give it another image (ie a new room) that has different light levels, orientation, and colors and what you taught the computer no longer applies. It would have to be taught again which requires human interact and supervision. See the problem?

Last thing I want to mention is called Title 3 otherwise known as the wire tapping act. Voice and video monitoring requires a super-warrant. Anything obtained without one cannot be used in court (the exception being Txt messages and emails can be used even if obtained legally).

Now how do I know these things and know why it is so difficult to do? I have worked for a three letter agency and my research deals largely with image analysis and machine learning (Ph.D. student). Plus I am using a bit of common sense. Why would anyone literally waste millions storing and attempting to data mine these things? Do you have a car, insurance, credit cards, loans, address, job, internet connection. There are much easier and better ways to learn about people with those.

While I do think this has been blown out of proportion, it still is an issue. They could say OK...Xboxes sold really well in Fargo, North Dakota. Let's gather data from those customers and find out why so we can market better to that demographic. They don't have to be gathering ALL data. They can narrow it down to regions based on how the Xbox live account was registered. Plus certain images will be recognizable in any environment. A soda can for example...anything with a highly visible logo. Plus the Xboxes are not going to be moved from room to room a lot any way. They will be plugged in by the TV and left there. It will probably be able to tell if a fly is in the room since it will know the room so well.

I don't think A LOT of people are worried about the government tapping into this...some are and they have every right to, but I don't think that is wide spread. People are worried about Microsoft spying on them for their gain. Not anything that Title 3 would come into play on. Though I should remind you that the government made title 3 and can take it away or circumvent if they deem it necessary.

Plus all of the above...what you wrote and what I wrote...depends on the Kinect to functioning as intended. I've personally seen recordings that people have made from hacked web cams and networked security cameras. I quickly shut it off once I realized what it was and got the hell out of there as it was creepy as hell, but what has been seen cannot be unseen. What could happen if an attacker got control of the Kinect? The Xbox will be online and there are going to be many apps on it that will provide many ways to get something not so nice on your Xbox. This is my one and only issue with the Xbox. If I ever caught an IP on my network and figured out they were on a device with a camera recording my kids...I'd be in prison if I could trace it. This situation is highly unlikely...but possible if the xbox is around. On phones the camera is typically pointed at the table or the ceiling...not much risk there. Web cams on laptops are disabled in my house hold. We do have a webcam on one PC, but if we are not using it we unplug the USB cable and put it in a drawer...keeps the lens clean and maintains privacy. None of this can be done with the Xbox. So now if I want a console I am at the mercy of the MSRP of the PS4 and I am leaning heavily towards getting a console over upgrading my PC again. With Modding getting axed from most newer games I find my self not having a lot of interest in PC gaming any more.
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post #166 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

While I do think this has been blown out of proportion, it still is an issue. They could say OK...Xboxes sold really well in Fargo, North Dakota. Let's gather data from those customers and find out why so we can market better to that demographic. They don't have to be gathering ALL data. They can narrow it down to regions based on how the Xbox live account was registered. Plus certain images will be recognizable in any environment. A soda can for example...anything with a highly visible logo. Plus the Xboxes are not going to be moved from room to room a lot any way. They will be plugged in by the TV and left there. It will probably be able to tell if a fly is in the room since it will know the room so well.

I don't think A LOT of people are worried about the government tapping into this...some are and they have every right to, but I don't think that is wide spread. People are worried about Microsoft spying on them for their gain. Not anything that Title 3 would come into play on. Though I should remind you that the government made title 3 and can take it away or circumvent if they deem it necessary.

Plus all of the above...what you wrote and what I wrote...depends on the Kinect to functioning as intended. I've personally seen recordings that people have made from hacked web cams and networked security cameras. I quickly shut it off once I realized what it was and got the hell out of there as it was creepy as hell, but what has been seen cannot be unseen. What could happen if an attacker got control of the Kinect? The Xbox will be online and there are going to be many apps on it that will provide many ways to get something not so nice on your Xbox. This is my one and only issue with the Xbox. If I ever caught an IP on my network and figured out they were on a device with a camera recording my kids...I'd be in prison if I could trace it. This situation is highly unlikely...but possible if the xbox is around. On phones the camera is typically pointed at the table or the ceiling...not much risk there. Web cams on laptops are disabled in my house hold. We do have a webcam on one PC, but if we are not using it we unplug the USB cable and put it in a drawer...keeps the lens clean and maintains privacy. None of this can be done with the Xbox. So now if I want a console I am at the mercy of the MSRP of the PS4 and I am leaning heavily towards getting a console over upgrading my PC again. With Modding getting axed from most newer games I find my self not having a lot of interest in PC gaming any more.

My concern is that it just feels weird, much like yours.
    
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post #167 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axon14 View Post

My concern is that it just feels weird, much like yours.

Well, yeah...I have that too...it would be like if you found out some one had been digging through your garbage to find out what brands of cereal you like to eat in your house. Does it hurt me in anyway? No...but it is weird. However, I think we all KNOW that the new Xbox is going to be a prime hacker/cracker target and it will be just because of the Kinect. So that is the only issue I am truly concerned about.
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post #168 of 289
Guess nobody saw my post this morning about the ability to turn off the Kinect....
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post #169 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

Guess nobody saw my post this morning about the ability to turn off the Kinect....

They were talking about shutting down the whole Xbox...not just the Kinect. If the Xbox is on...then so is the Kinect. If the Xbox is in the low powered state...then the Kinect is off, but the mic is still on.

Though again...this is all assuming intended operation.
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post #170 of 289
XBone! Turn off your Mic and Camera please.


I Can't Do That Data Subject #91285


...sorry couldn't resist! tongue.gif
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [V2] Microsoft: "We Aren't Using Kinect To Snoop."