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[AMD] AMD Teases A Mysterious Picture - Page 22

post #211 of 260
The Richland announcement isn't the only thing they are announcing I hope. These companies need to stop hyping this stuff if it is lol.
post #212 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpion87 View Post

And why shouldn't future CPUs/Chipsets not be able to use that VRAM ?

Also it sounds reasonable, for the PS4 is already using (G)DDR5 ?, and DDR4 is also around the corner.

Yep, 8GB GDDR5 unified for CPU and GPU.
See two posts below. I was slightly misinformed.
Edited by Sethris225 - 6/2/13 at 4:55pm
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post #213 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpion87 View Post

And why shouldn't future CPUs/Chipsets not be able to use that VRAM ?

High latency over PCI-E.
Quote:
Also it sounds reasonable, for the PS4 is already using (G)DDR5 ?, and DDR4 is also around the corner.

PS4 uses an APU, and GDDR5, while much faster for heavily parallel (read: graphics) workloads, is much slower for more serial workloads -- the kinds that the CPU portion of the APU is solely going to handle once HSA is implemented.
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post #214 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpion87 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

... Do you know what HUMA is?

Because thinking a non-APU can do it points to no. HUMA is shared memory between the CPU and GPU of a chip. Dedicated GPUs have their own VRAM, and for them to use system RAM is bad due to the latency.

HUMA will not apply outside APUs.

And why shouldn't future CPUs/Chipsets not be able to use that VRAM ?

Also it sounds reasonable, for the PS4 is already using (G)DDR5 ?, and DDR4 is also around the corner.

The PS4 also uses an APU...

Again, the latency of talking over PCI-e is bad. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.

Also, the CPU has it's own RAM, and the GPU has it's own ram. HUMA stands for "Heterogeneous Unified Memory Architecture". What part of a CPU using a GPU's RAM sounds like it's unified?
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post #215 of 260
And I have a teaser picture for AMD....


Edited by aweir - 6/2/13 at 5:31pm
post #216 of 260

thats funny lachen.gif

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post #217 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

The PS4 also uses an APU...

Again, the latency of talking over PCI-e is bad. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.

Also, the CPU has it's own RAM, and the GPU has it's own ram. HUMA stands for "Heterogeneous Unified Memory Architecture". What part of a CPU using a GPU's RAM sounds like it's unified?

The "unified" part is referring to the system's address space which is something that would still be a bonus for programming GPGPU apps with discrete cards. You appear to mean to talk about the "homogenous" part which is a valid complaint, but memory managers could certainly be made smart enough to intelligently allocate space in a way that makes sense (ie a CPU thread allocates a chunk of available memory and that memory is chosen to be in system memory instead of GPU memory if available but bleeds over if not). We already see this now with other UMA-themed memory technologies like NUMA as used in multi-socket AMD systems.
post #218 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Particle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

The PS4 also uses an APU...

Again, the latency of talking over PCI-e is bad. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.

Also, the CPU has it's own RAM, and the GPU has it's own ram. HUMA stands for "Heterogeneous Unified Memory Architecture". What part of a CPU using a GPU's RAM sounds like it's unified?

The "unified" part is referring to the system's address space which is something that would still be a bonus for programming GPGPU apps with discrete cards. You appear to mean to talk about the "homogenous" part which is a valid complaint, but memory managers could certainly be made smart enough to intelligently allocate space in a way that makes sense (ie a CPU thread allocates a chunk of available memory and that memory is chosen to be in system memory instead of GPU memory if available but bleeds over if not). We already see this now with other UMA-themed memory technologies like NUMA as used in multi-socket AMD systems.

Right, so how do you plan to solve the PCI-e latency issue that you completely ignored?

Oh, and PCI-e can just barely provide enough bandwidth to even tie with RAM, let alone be faster. GDDR5's bandwidth does not apply over the 8 or 16 bit bus that is the GPU's connection to the system.

Not to mention overhead that has to be accounted for, the extra jumps it takes to get there (VRAM -> GPU -> NB -> HT -> CPU/NB -> Cache -> CPU vs RAM -> IMC -> Cache -> CPU), the speed of HyperTransport which cuts down the bandwidth even more, the fact that going over HT means waiting in line with everything else that needs to be talked to, and so on.

There is less VRAM then there is System RAM, even today, and GDDR5 already has worse latency even without having to jump through hoops to get there. VRAM GDDR5's speed is completely negated by the protocols needed to get it where it needs to go. If you need more speed, VRAM hurts.

Oh, and I was wrong, it's "Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access". One memory source for all things, not unified address space. We've had that for years now. Lets take a look:

SOURCE

HUMA: Combined memory for the CPU and GPU.
HSA: Programing to make using the GPU half easier.

So, who still thinks trying to get the CPU to use a GPU's VRAM is a good idea and can actually back up their statement with fact that wouldn't make it a worse alternative to just using system RAM.
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post #219 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Particle View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

The PS4 also uses an APU...

Again, the latency of talking over PCI-e is bad. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.

Also, the CPU has it's own RAM, and the GPU has it's own ram. HUMA stands for "Heterogeneous Unified Memory Architecture". What part of a CPU using a GPU's RAM sounds like it's unified?

The "unified" part is referring to the system's address space which is something that would still be a bonus for programming GPGPU apps with discrete cards. You appear to mean to talk about the "homogenous" part which is a valid complaint, but memory managers could certainly be made smart enough to intelligently allocate space in a way that makes sense (ie a CPU thread allocates a chunk of available memory and that memory is chosen to be in system memory instead of GPU memory if available but bleeds over if not). We already see this now with other UMA-themed memory technologies like NUMA as used in multi-socket AMD systems.

Right, so how do you plan to solve the PCI-e latency issue that you completely ignored?

Oh, and PCI-e can just barely provide enough bandwidth to even tie with RAM, let alone be faster. GDDR5's bandwidth does not apply over the 8 or 16 bit bus that is the GPU's connection to the system.

Not to mention overhead that has to be accounted for, the extra jumps it takes to get there (VRAM -> GPU -> NB -> HT -> CPU/NB -> Cache -> CPU vs RAM -> IMC -> Cache -> CPU), the speed of HyperTransport which cuts down the bandwidth even more, the fact that going over HT means waiting in line with everything else that needs to be talked to, and so on.

There is less VRAM then there is System RAM, even today, and GDDR5 already has worse latency even without having to jump through hoops to get there. VRAM GDDR5's speed is completely negated by the protocols needed to get it where it needs to go. If you need more speed, VRAM hurts.

Oh, and I was wrong, it's "Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access". One memory source for all things, not unified address space. We've had that for years now. Lets take a look:

SOURCE

HUMA: Combined memory for the CPU and GPU.
HSA: Programing to make using the GPU half easier.

So, who still thinks trying to get the CPU to use a GPU's VRAM is a good idea and can actually back up their statement with fact that wouldn't make it a worse alternative to just using system RAM.

Nobody should be. You are very correct.

HSA would still be beneficial to an OS though. I was hoping to see that in the near future.
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post #220 of 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post


Nobody should be. You are very correct.

HSA would still be beneficial to an OS though. I was hoping to see that in the near future.

Oh I think HSA will benefit lots of things. I can't wait to see what happens when it gets into full swing.
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