Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Various] Intel Haswell Reviews
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[Various] Intel Haswell Reviews - Page 83

post #821 of 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by demoship View Post

Isn't that because if you compile a program for certain instruction sets that a CPU doesn't have, it won't work with that CPU?

It's kind of hard for software publishers to publish multiple versions based on what your CPU supports, so they go with what's supported by 99% of computers.

I don't know that many people who try to play Battlefield 3 or Crysis 3 on Pentium 3s.

As for the x87, if you're using a CPU that doesn't support SSE, then it's older than a Pentium 3, and I'd be amazed if you managed to boot Skyrim with a Pentium 2 or Pro.
Edited by A Bad Day - 6/10/13 at 12:34pm
post #822 of 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Bad Day View Post

I don't know that many people who try to play Battlefield 3 or Crysis 3 on Pentium 3s.

As for the x87, if you're using a CPU that doesn't support SSE, then it's older than a Pentium 3, and I'd be amazed if you managed to boot Skyrim with a Pentium 2 or Pro.

Well, I'm not talking about SSE. I'm talking about a lot of the newer instructions that came out in the past few years. None of those are usable by major software publishers because CPUs that don't support them are still in use.
post #823 of 858
There are games that require SSE2, but I can't think of any game that absolutely requires any newer x86 instructions than this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

This is like Intel babbys first "omg I found out that new instructions can speed up a CISC processor if they're used."

Don't be me wrong, I'm very glad PCSX2 team and Dolphin team are capable of leveraging new instructions to increase performance (why Bethesda can't do this is beyond me). However getting excited about these improvements and saying it makes Haswell faster than IB is not any different than me compiling LAME to use a bunch of fancy instructions SB and IB don't have, beating them, and then declaring FX 8350 has better IPC.

That's simply not true (I can feel rage boiling just by typing that out) and to declare Haswell as a significant increase over IB because of two applications using new instructions that IB and older doesn't have is a huge mistake.

The Dolphin build in question does not utilize any instructions new to Haswell; some tasks with existing instructions can be dramatically faster. There are more improvements than just bolting on new instruction sets. Haswell has increased queue/buffer sizes all around, better branch prediction, two more execution ports, and nearly double the L1 and L2 bandwidth of Ivy. As we see from most tests, these areas weren't often bottlenecks with Ivy, but in some tests, like Dolphin, it's quite possible they were. It's not hard to imagine why heavy use of dynamic recompilation could leverage such advantages better than more common tasks.

Even with the same instructions, there are situations where Haswell will be significantly faster clock for clock, than it's predecessor, for all the reasons I listed above. There are also a handful of cases where it will be slower (those heavily dependent on L3/memory latency).
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.3/3.6GHz core/uncore, 1.225/1.2v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) 2x Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC New Edition (10036... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-11-12-27-T1, 1.37v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.05) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Cooler Master Nepton 280L 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Reference R9 290X w/Stilt's MLU 1000e / 1375m E... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.3/3.6GHz core/uncore, 1.225/1.2v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) 2x Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC New Edition (10036... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-11-12-27-T1, 1.37v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.05) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Cooler Master Nepton 280L 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Reference R9 290X w/Stilt's MLU 1000e / 1375m E... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
post #824 of 858
I like the HEXUS review and for gaming this sums it up:

Benchmarks: Discrete GPU
graph16.jpg

Here's an interesting point of discussion. If you're running a high-performance gaming rig,
will upgrading to a newer Intel processor deliver a better in-game experience?
We've loaded all of our comparison test platforms with a powerful GeForce GTX 780 to see how they all respond,
and with the onus on the discrete GPU, it really doesn't matter if you're running a 2700K,
3770K or 4770K. Yet the Intel chips return a level of performance that is fundamentally higher than AMD's.

graph17.jpg

BioShock Infinite is even less CPU dependent - with a GeForce GTX 780 in tow,
you get practically the same experience whether you're running a second-, third- or fourth-generation Core processor.



The Bad
New motherboard required for LGA1150
Early chips show limited overclocking potential
post #825 of 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

This is like Intel babbys first "omg I found out that new instructions can speed up a CISC processor if they're used."

Don't be me wrong, I'm very glad PCSX2 team and Dolphin team are capable of leveraging new instructions to increase performance (why Bethesda can't do this is beyond me). However getting excited about these improvements and saying it makes Haswell faster than IB is not any different than me compiling LAME to use a bunch of fancy instructions SB and IB don't have, beating them, and then declaring FX 8350 has better IPC.

That's simply not true (I can feel rage boiling just by typing that out) and to declare Haswell as a significant increase over IB because of two applications using new instructions that IB and older doesn't have is a huge mistake.

Let me put it this way in regards to the amount of increases I've seen by compiling my entire OS for my FX 8350: I would not be surprised that if PCSX2 and Dolphin used x87 instead of AVX and all the flavors of SSE, that it wouldn't even break 30fps in any situation.

I am glad that you guys are starting to see the benefits of instructions on a CPU architecture that's designed to derive all it's performance from new instructions (at least in theory of CISC CPUs), but this kind of thing has existed forever.

However I would love to see how Haswell performs in Gentoo, I bet those instructions could see massive speedups on everything. I know I compiled Dolphin for FX 8350 by myself and saw massive gains compared to Windows as well.

It is good to see Intel catching up with instructions. The fact that my FX 8350 was faster with optimized blender than 3930k in windows per clock was a little sad. But it doesn't matter much to most Intel folks because they're all about the proprietary software and the old games.

It varies on what you do, if you play a lot of PCSX2 and the like? Haswell will be a much faster chip, but for most of us? Not much faster.
It's just like the FX vs i5, some of us do more than game and will accept a small gaming performance decrease for the increases elsewhere but most people here game and would be better off with the i5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Bad Day View Post

It took AutoCAD nearly a decade to require SSE2 support for their 2009 software.

A decade, and we still have stupid things like x87 being used in Skyrim and CPU PhysX.

By the time a new instruction set enters widespread usage, that CPU would've already been obsolete. If an employer told me to use an old Pentium 4 computer to do 3D rendering, I'd ask him if he was nuts.

The only exception I can think of is the scientific community, but there are many researchers who still use physic stimulation software that lack CUDA or OpenCL support because all of their funding went into million-dollar equipments.

That's for commercial software, though...If you use open source stuff and compile it yourself generally you can get at least a bit of support for newer instruction sets.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Arcitc Cooling Acclero Twin Turbo II Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 600w CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White SteelSeries Sensei Professional 
Mouse PadAudioOther
Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570k @ 4.5Ghz ASRock Z77 Pro3 Powercolor Radeon HD7950 3GB @ 1150/1350 4x4GB G.Skill Ares 2000Mhz CL9 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung 840 250GB Western Digital Black 1TB WD1002FAEX Seagate Barracuda 3TB ST3000DM001 Samsung Spinpoint EcoGreen 2TB 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Pioneer DVR-220LBKS Noctua NH-D14 Scythe Gentle Typhoon 1850rpm Corsair AF140 Quiet Edition 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Arcitc Cooling Acclero Twin Turbo II Arch Linux x86-64, amdgpu BenQ G2220HD BenQ G2020HD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine III Year of the Snake, Cherry Blue Silverstone Strider Plus 600w CoolerMaster CM690 II Black and White SteelSeries Sensei Professional 
Mouse PadAudioOther
Artisan Hien Mid Japan Black Large ASUS Xonar DX NZXT Sentry Mesh 30w Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
post #826 of 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by malmental View Post

We've loaded all of our comparison test platforms with a powerful GeForce GTX 780 to see how they all respond,
and with the onus on the discrete GPU, it really doesn't matter if you're running a 2700K,
3770K or 4770K. Yet the Intel chips return a level of performance that is fundamentally higher than AMD's.

I do believe it is somewhat unfair to expect a cheaper A10 to keep up with an i5 or i7 when a dedicated GPU is used.
post #827 of 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

It varies on what you do, if you play a lot of PCSX2 and the like? Haswell will be a much faster chip, but for most of us? Not much faster.
It's just like the FX vs i5, some of us do more than game and will accept a small gaming performance decrease for the increases elsewhere but most people here game and would be better off with the i5.

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I think it's great people are finally starting to realize that instructions can make CISC CPUs a lot faster. It just irks me when people think this is some sort of IPC increase or something. A Pentium 1 with AVX and SSE would be a huge upgrade, doesn't make it overall any faster as an architecture excluding the instructions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Bad Day View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by malmental View Post

We've loaded all of our comparison test platforms with a powerful GeForce GTX 780 to see how they all respond,
and with the onus on the discrete GPU, it really doesn't matter if you're running a 2700K,
3770K or 4770K. Yet the Intel chips return a level of performance that is fundamentally higher than AMD's.

I do believe it is somewhat unfair to expect a cheaper A10 to keep up with an i5 or i7 when a dedicated GPU is used.

I definitely agree. A10 is still basically just like an FX 4300 without the iGPU. Who would pair a GTX 780 with something like that? Including one product that is in a much lower market segment against products that are priced much higher is deceptive at best, specially if prices are not blatantly laid out for the types of people who just look at graphs. A casual onlooker would simply think that AMD's competitors in that price range are the A10, and that is is far behind 4770k at around the same price.
Tyrant Kuma
(13 items)
 
Starscythe
(13 items)
 
Mobility
(6 items)
 
CPUCPUCPUCPU
Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 
MotherboardGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Super Micro h8qme-2+ Sapphire 4870 Samsung DDR2 ECC 667mhz western digital caviar blue 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
FX 8350 stock cooler FX 6300 stock cooler Gentoo Linux 2x Silverstone PSU 
Case
Custom Fabbed Steel Case 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX 8350 gigabyte 990FXA-UD5 7970 Mushkin Enhanced Blackline 16GB 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Gentoo Linux Windows 7 x64 Yamakasi Catleap Q270 Corsair K90 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Silverstone Strider Gold Evolution 850W 80 PLUS... Antec 1200 Logitech G9x Asus Xonar D2X 
Other
XSPC RS360 Raystorm with custom radiator mounts 
CPUGraphicsRAMOS
a4 5000 Radeon HD 8330 8GB G. Skill DDR3 1600 9-9-9 Gentoo Linux 
OSOther
Windows 7 Lenovo Thinkpad x140e 
  hide details  
Reply
Tyrant Kuma
(13 items)
 
Starscythe
(13 items)
 
Mobility
(6 items)
 
CPUCPUCPUCPU
Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 Opteron 8431 
MotherboardGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Super Micro h8qme-2+ Sapphire 4870 Samsung DDR2 ECC 667mhz western digital caviar blue 
CoolingCoolingOSPower
FX 8350 stock cooler FX 6300 stock cooler Gentoo Linux 2x Silverstone PSU 
Case
Custom Fabbed Steel Case 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD FX 8350 gigabyte 990FXA-UD5 7970 Mushkin Enhanced Blackline 16GB 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Gentoo Linux Windows 7 x64 Yamakasi Catleap Q270 Corsair K90 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Silverstone Strider Gold Evolution 850W 80 PLUS... Antec 1200 Logitech G9x Asus Xonar D2X 
Other
XSPC RS360 Raystorm with custom radiator mounts 
CPUGraphicsRAMOS
a4 5000 Radeon HD 8330 8GB G. Skill DDR3 1600 9-9-9 Gentoo Linux 
OSOther
Windows 7 Lenovo Thinkpad x140e 
  hide details  
Reply
post #828 of 858
I was more or less interested in the comparisons between the 2600/2700K and the 4770K .

I personally did not say anything about AMD that was direct from the review.
no AMD bashing here, if anything it goes more against Haswell then AMD..

I come in peace.. smile.gif

edit:
my bad for not making my thoughts clear in the beginning.
I have a golden 2500K and I just grabbed a 2700K as an upgrade but, my 2500K is golden and hit 5.0GHz @ 1.4GHz easy..
not sure what to do.
Edited by malmental - 6/11/13 at 2:59am
post #829 of 858
Unless you need something Z87 brings, keep the 5GHz 2500K. You'll need to get a little lucky to get a Haswell that can beat that, and even then the performance increase isn't worth the money. Unless you just want something new to play with, of course.
post #830 of 858
Thread Starter 
Or your name is Alatar and you get all the golden chips rolleyes.gif
Pernod
(28 items)
 
Oleo
(14 items)
 
The Sidewinder
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
Intel Xeon E5-4650 Intel Xeon E5-4650 Asus Z9PE-D8 WS GeForce GTX 780 Ti 
RAMRAMHard DriveHard Drive
4 x 4GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 4 x 4GB Corsair Dominator Platinum Samsung Spinpoint F3 2TB Sandisk Ultra 64GB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
mushkin Triactor 240GB EK Supremacy Nickel/Plexi EK Supremacy Nickel/Plexi TFC XChanger 360 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Koolance RP452X2 Swiftech MCP-655 Corsair SP120 "QE" Windows 10 Enterprise x64 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
openSUSE Leap 42.1 x64 Dell U2412M Dell U2412M Acer P241W-d 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky 1008 w/ Cherry MX Blue Coolermaster Silent Pro M2 1.5kW Silverstone Raven RV01B-W Microsoft Sidewinder X5 
AudioAudioAudioOther
Asus Xonar DX Beyerdynamic DT 880 Premium AudioEngine A2 (2.0) Wacom Intuos Pen & Touch 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7 2600K @5.2  MSI MPower Z77 GeForce GTX 470 Corsair Vengeance 2000MHz C10 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung Spinpoint F1 XSPC Raystorm EK Spin Bay Res Clear mcp-350 (ddc1) 
CoolingCoolingOSOS
XSPC EX120 XSPC EX240 openSUSE 12.3 x64 elementaryOS 0.3 (Freya) x64 
PowerCase
Corsair TX750 750W Lian Li A05NB 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel C2Q Q9550 Asus P5G41C-M LX GeForce GTX 470 Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Seagate LP 500GB Crucial M4 128GB WD Red 2TB WD Red 4TB 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Scythe Big Shuriken w/ Silverstone Suscool 121 Windows 10 Home x64 Sony Bravia KDL-37EX500 Antec TP650 New 
CaseOther
Lian Li V351B Silverstone Suscool 121 120mm case fans 
  hide details  
Reply
Pernod
(28 items)
 
Oleo
(14 items)
 
The Sidewinder
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
Intel Xeon E5-4650 Intel Xeon E5-4650 Asus Z9PE-D8 WS GeForce GTX 780 Ti 
RAMRAMHard DriveHard Drive
4 x 4GB Corsair Dominator Platinum 4 x 4GB Corsair Dominator Platinum Samsung Spinpoint F3 2TB Sandisk Ultra 64GB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
mushkin Triactor 240GB EK Supremacy Nickel/Plexi EK Supremacy Nickel/Plexi TFC XChanger 360 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
Koolance RP452X2 Swiftech MCP-655 Corsair SP120 "QE" Windows 10 Enterprise x64 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
openSUSE Leap 42.1 x64 Dell U2412M Dell U2412M Acer P241W-d 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky 1008 w/ Cherry MX Blue Coolermaster Silent Pro M2 1.5kW Silverstone Raven RV01B-W Microsoft Sidewinder X5 
AudioAudioAudioOther
Asus Xonar DX Beyerdynamic DT 880 Premium AudioEngine A2 (2.0) Wacom Intuos Pen & Touch 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7 2600K @5.2  MSI MPower Z77 GeForce GTX 470 Corsair Vengeance 2000MHz C10 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung Spinpoint F1 XSPC Raystorm EK Spin Bay Res Clear mcp-350 (ddc1) 
CoolingCoolingOSOS
XSPC EX120 XSPC EX240 openSUSE 12.3 x64 elementaryOS 0.3 (Freya) x64 
PowerCase
Corsair TX750 750W Lian Li A05NB 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel C2Q Q9550 Asus P5G41C-M LX GeForce GTX 470 Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Seagate LP 500GB Crucial M4 128GB WD Red 2TB WD Red 4TB 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Scythe Big Shuriken w/ Silverstone Suscool 121 Windows 10 Home x64 Sony Bravia KDL-37EX500 Antec TP650 New 
CaseOther
Lian Li V351B Silverstone Suscool 121 120mm case fans 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Hardware News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Various] Intel Haswell Reviews