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So for us Sandy/Ivy owners, what do we do now?

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
Intro
Well, the benchmarks are out for Haswell. In general, we get perhaps 5-10% improvements on average, with a few specific benchmarks very favorable (such as AES encryption). Factor in that the overclocks do not seem to be that good (right now), and that largely negates the IPC gains over Ivy/Sandy.

I think there are many people like me - we have a Sandy (2500k/2600k) or Ivy (3570k or 3770k) and are discussing whether to upgrade or not. The new motherboards look good, and I suppose we will have to wait for the delidded results. Curiously the engineering samples are better OCers than the retail (anybody know why)?

The truth is, I think most of us knew that there weren't going to be the kind of improvements like the introduction of Conroe or even the Sandy intro (much cooler than before and the widespread availability of the unlocked multiplier) - the Tom's Hardware leak was especially accurate. It's just that the high heat output (from the VR on the chip) and the limited OC potential is the serious downer and nasty surprise for us. The FIVR is the problem here - sacrificing mobile for desktop.


Analysis
Looking into the future at this point:
1. We still need to see the delidded results, if they can consistently get in the 5-5.5 GHz range, then it's arguably worth an upgrade. But I doubt that will happen. No doubt that delidding will see some considerable gains (perhaps 20 degrees C), but also remember that Haswell right now needs high voltage to get to 5.5 GHz, high enough likely that you would not want to run it 24-7 (even with a good watercooling setup).

2. Broadwell will probably bring another 4-5% next year. Actually to be honest, I suspect that Broadwell will actually be a weaker upgrade to Haswell than Ivy was to Sandy because well, these die shrinks seem to be returning fewer gains per shrink as we get near the physical limitations of what is possible.

3. Later this year, Ivy Bridge E is coming out. It'll be interesting to see it's performance but there's no reason to believe that it will not be the 6 core analogue of the performance of a 3770k to a 2700k.

It's possible that in the future, I would argue that there might be more heavily threaded games, so more CPU cores in such a situation may make a difference and that games could become CPU-bottlenecked more often, not just in higher end multi-GPU setups.

4. Something inside of me tells me that when Intel releases Skylake, we're going to get similar results compared to Haswell.

5. AMD has made some gains, but lets face it, for the next couple of years, barring a miracle, I do not think that AMD will offer a competitive single core IPC per performance chip.

6. Finally, Haswell E will come in 2014. I imagine performance wise, it'll be like Sandy E to Sandy. Actually ... maybe not. If the voltage regulators are not on the chip, then we could see some pretty good OC gains. If they are, then Haswell E will be a serious disappointment because well, the heat output from 6 cores + the VRMs will be seriously high and that will limit the OC headroom.

7. The only other real annoyance i have with Intel is that the K series doesn't come with Vt-D ... again. I'm not sure how this is supposed to make Intel money by denying enthusiasts virtualization. Grr, it's Intel separating the different SKUs again, but this decision I think was really dumb on Intel's part. If anything, an Intel that wants to make money should be releasing something like a "K series" for Xeons.


What Now?
All of this leaves us with the big question, what do we do now? Strictly from a price to performance ratio, unless you've got a Nehalem system, it's really hard to justify upgrading unless you must have the absolute best.

I'm seriously thinking about holding myself - the only thing that I really like are the new motherboards.

So it leaves us with 3 options:
1. Pay up and upgrade to Haswell. The drawback is well, a couple of hundred for very limited gains unless you get a golden chip or if the delidded stuff yields really big gains.

2. Wait for Ivy Bridge E and upgrade. Alternatively wait even more for Haswell E. This involves forking even more cash than option 1.

3. Just spend the money on something else. Given the disappointing OC potential, this is a pretty viable option.


It's the land of lousy options. Also, your usage will matter - if you use your CPU for things like AES, then the upgrade is justified.

I personally for example use my PC for a combination of gaming and x264 encoding, which saw a somewhat bigger gain with Haswell. Seeing that x264 does scale with 6 cores as does my current favorite game Shogun 2 (and likely later Rome 2 when it arrives), I'm tempted to wait for Ivy E.

What about you guys? What do you use your Ivy/Sandy systems for, what games do you play, and what do you think about this situation?
Edited by CrazyElf - 6/2/13 at 1:47am
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post #2 of 15
It's pretty simple for sandy / ivy owners IMO, keep your stuff.

I'm more torn with my Nehalem setup; was really hoping that after 3 years something would blow me away....nope :/
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post #3 of 15
Since I don't really utilize the full potential of my 2500k at 5 GHz, I'll just wait it out until Intel or AMD come out with something worth buying. I really need to upgrade my video card first anyway.
post #4 of 15
I think as we move forward into the future, games will become more and more GPU dependent than CPU dependent. I dont see why you would want to wait to get IB-E/Haswell-e if by the time they come out games are GPU bound, especially with the new consoles coming out. One 1,000 $$ cpu is overkill for the future. Grab a hassy, a Z87, future proof it up, and let it rip.
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSpitfire View Post

I think as we move forward into the future, games will become more and more GPU dependent than CPU dependent. I dont see why you would want to wait to get IB-E/Haswell-e if by the time they come out games are GPU bound, especially with the new consoles coming out. One 1,000 $$ cpu is overkill for the future. Grab a hassy, a Z87, future proof it up, and let it rip.

As I have indicated, Shogun 2 does show some performance gain with 6 cores:

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2011/11/14/intel-sandy-bridge-e-review/7

Of course, arguably another GPU is a better investment for the price difference, but then again, a counter is that x264 also does scale. Decisions, decisions.

Edit:
It's possible that in the future, I would argue that there might be more heavily threaded games, so more CPU cores in such a situation may make a difference and that games could become CPU-bottlenecked more often, not just in higher end multi-GPU setups. I will put this in the original thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by candy_van View Post

It's pretty simple for sandy / ivy owners IMO, keep your stuff.

I'm more torn with my Nehalem setup; was really hoping that after 3 years something would blow me away....nope :/

Well, another option for you may be to see if you can get somebody's used Sandy system.
Edited by CrazyElf - 6/2/13 at 1:39am
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post #6 of 15
is it me or does putting voltage regulation on a tiny little chip instead of a massive motherboard sound ridiculous? in terms of thermal efficiency I mean...

like, isn't this just a step backwards, technology-wise, aimed directly at controlling the aftermarket enthusiasts ability to unlock extra performance? it seems like after getting busted intentionally creating hotplates on ivy that they needed to come up with a solution to kill this 50% performance gain overclocking, after having re-engaged the market with sandy's ridiculously easy and huge OCs. so by moving voltage regulation onto the chip and cloaking it as improved technology and reliability (harder to fry your chip when it shuts itself off no matter what you do to it) they are just packing all the heat into one tiny little package, and designing it to have a hard heat wall much closer to the stock specs than on sandy or even ivy. with a few more revisions we'll be back in 15% OC territory without water, and they wont have to continue using locked straps to limit OC potential. you see how on ivy/haswell they had to give us better memory clocking options, and haswell has unlocked straps like sb-e right?

anyways.. is it me?
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post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollyburner View Post

is it me or does putting voltage regulation on a tiny little chip instead of a massive motherboard sound ridiculous? in terms of thermal efficiency I mean...

like, isn't this just a step backwards, technology-wise, aimed directly at controlling the aftermarket enthusiasts ability to unlock extra performance? it seems like after getting busted intentionally creating hotplates on ivy that they needed to come up with a solution to kill this 50% performance gain overclocking, after having re-engaged the market with sandy's ridiculously easy and huge OCs. so by moving voltage regulation onto the chip and cloaking it as improved technology and reliability (harder to fry your chip when it shuts itself off no matter what you do to it) they are just packing all the heat into one tiny little package, and designing it to have a hard heat wall much closer to the stock specs than on sandy or even ivy. with a few more revisions we'll be back in 15% OC territory without water, and they wont have to continue using locked straps to limit OC potential. you see how on ivy/haswell they had to give us better memory clocking options, and haswell has unlocked straps like sb-e right?

anyways.. is it me?

It's not just you. I have no doubt that Intel knew that putting the controller onboard would increase CPU power consumption. But as a whole, total system power consumption was supposed to decline, which is good for mobile. For desktops though ... it's a negative. Seeing that everyone is touting mobile as the future, I guess volume won out.
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post #8 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

Analysis
Looking into the future at this point:
1. We still need to see the delidded results, if they can consistently get in the 5-5.5 GHz range, then it's arguably worth an upgrade?

can I get to 5.2+ on anything with water right now? real water or AIO?

if delidding a haswell can get me 5.4 im all haswell all day, I will try it. didn't think there was potential for much over 5GHz flat from what ive been reading, how far do ivy's go delidded?
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post #9 of 15
Thread Starter 
No you cannot. That's why I said were that to happen, it's a worthy upgrade. A good Sandy/Ivy gets you maybe in the 4.5 - 5.2 GHz range with air, maybe a couple of hundred MHz more with a higher end water setup.

In that case it would be like 10% from Sandy + another 10% extra from the clockspeed. That's where I think we would reach a threshold where upgrading might be worth it.
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post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

It's not just you. I have no doubt that Intel knew that putting the controller onboard would increase CPU power consumption. But as a whole, total system power consumption was supposed to decline, which is good for mobile. For desktops though ... it's a negative. Seeing that everyone is touting mobile as the future, I guess volume won out.

yes 100% agree on the mobile thing, and I think that haswells actually are a great improvement for mobile devices, just looking at power consumption and therefore heat, alone. also the IGPUs have seen a huge improvement with haswell afaik, so for mobile devices and HTPCs that is great news.

unfortunately, mobile is not the future. there will always be desktops. mobile devices are great, but if I need a computer at work lets say, and my job doesn't involve a lot of meetings or presentations where I need my computer to show clients stuff or w/e... im not going to work on a bleeping laptops for bleeps sake. and if im not taking the thing home with me, it would probably be most convenient, and the best performance, if it were in a roomy box, with good airflow, and easy access for replacement of components. something like... a desktop computer case.

you know whats great? monitors that aren't attached to a 6 lb keyboard.

you know whats awesome? when u put a laptop... on ur lap... and then it overheats cause all the air grills are blocked?

you know whats highly convenient? when people who own laptops don't have mice. I love borrowing their computers to look something up, and then using that touchpad thing for the mouse. man those things are accurate. I think im going to switch to a touchpad for my FPS games.

I find 14" monitors sexy, and more than large enough for all my purposes. I like how the viewing angle is about 5 degrees, it helps when I want to show people something on my laptop. I like when people with bad breath move their faces uncomfortably close to mine.

I switched to sarcasm somewhere back there, and I have now lost interest. I hope someone reads this.
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