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post #41 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this crap. The majority of people who oppose national protection practices have this ego so huge that they are some be-end-of-end-all where they hold content so valuable to them that they are going to be spied upon. People tend to forgot the culture they are from and believe that since other societal impacts that created a certain belief system in others, where these societies were ran and operated by fanatics, mentally deranged, mass murders, etc., that other nations will hold the same values regardless of how extensively the societies differ in ethics, beliefs, foundations, frameworks, etc. What is so important of you where you are such a high value target where the nation is going to want to investigate you, specifically, and watch your every move? Heck, there isn't even enough agents in the world to even bother watching people - there just isn't the man power unless the nation specifically begins to be operated and ran by what was mentioned above, let alone, has a nation so ignorant where they can't tell the difference between their hand and their arse.

There is a level that they don't cross in order to protect a nation. There is a reason why you tend to have the majority rule and merely protect the minority. To be allowed to access specific information aimed towards a very small percentage of people in order to protect 99% of the nation is needed for national security. If you're doing wrong, watch yourself. These means merely cut back on unnecessary red tape to get rid of the 'bad guys'.

Gezz, drives me nuts how people think the western world is operated and ran under the same principles of others... Please guys, stop spreading fear-mongoling...

Frankly, I'm sick of people willing to give away rights because they don't understand why they are important. Thank god you don't have the power to give my rights away.
I don't care if I have anything to hide or not, I have a RIGHT to privacy. It's not a privilege, it's a right. Many generations of my family (including myself and dating back to the early 1800's) fought for these very rights.
In the US, the Patriot Act and the practice this thread is about are completely unconstitutional, it's just sad that it may take years for the general public to come to that realization. Hopefully it's not too late.
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post #42 of 65
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this crap. The majority of people who oppose national protection practices have this ego so huge that they are some be-end-of-end-all where they hold content so valuable to them that they are going to be spied upon. People tend to forgot the culture they are from and believe that since other societal impacts that created a certain belief system in others, where these societies were ran and operated by fanatics, mentally deranged, mass murders, etc., that other nations will hold the same values regardless of how extensively the societies differ in ethics, beliefs, foundations, frameworks, etc. What is so important of you where you are such a high value target where the nation is going to want to investigate you, specifically, and watch your every move? Heck, there isn't even enough agents in the world to even bother watching people - there just isn't the man power unless the nation specifically begins to be operated and ran by what was mentioned above, let alone, has a nation so ignorant where they can't tell the difference between their hand and their arse.

There is a level that they don't cross in order to protect a nation. There is a reason why you tend to have the majority rule and merely protect the minority. To be allowed to access specific information aimed towards a very small percentage of people in order to protect 99% of the nation is needed for national security. If you're doing wrong, watch yourself. These means merely cut back on unnecessary red tape to get rid of the 'bad guys'.

Gezz, drives me nuts how people think the western world is operated and ran under the same principles of others... Please guys, stop spreading fear-mongoling...

9/11 resulted in the expansion and consolidation of government power. The financial crisis resulted in the consolidation of economic power. I wonder what happens in a monopoly of said powers… thinking.gif
post #43 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing this crap. The majority of people who oppose national protection practices have this ego so huge that they are some be-end-of-end-all where they hold content so valuable to them that they are going to be spied upon. People tend to forgot the culture they are from and believe that since other societal impacts that created a certain belief system in others, where these societies were ran and operated by fanatics, mentally deranged, mass murders, etc., that other nations will hold the same values regardless of how extensively the societies differ in ethics, beliefs, foundations, frameworks, etc. What is so important of you where you are such a high value target where the nation is going to want to investigate you, specifically, and watch your every move? Heck, there isn't even enough agents in the world to even bother watching people - there just isn't the man power unless the nation specifically begins to be operated and ran by what was mentioned above, let alone, has a nation so ignorant where they can't tell the difference between their hand and their arse.

There is a level that they don't cross in order to protect a nation. There is a reason why you tend to have the majority rule and merely protect the minority. To be allowed to access specific information aimed towards a very small percentage of people in order to protect 99% of the nation is needed for national security. If you're doing wrong, watch yourself. These means merely cut back on unnecessary red tape to get rid of the 'bad guys'.

Gezz, drives me nuts how people think the western world is operated and ran under the same principles of others... Please guys, stop spreading fear-mongoling...

The FBI sent out over 50,000 NSLs in 2006 alone. Bear in mind that NSLs are only supposed to be used for issues of utmost national security. I'm sure that number has grown in the interim. One does not have to be a fear-monger to find this practice of warrantless intrusions repugnant. I highly doubt there were over 50,000 instances of clear and present danger to the well-being of the nation. I am also tired of the argument that, "if you haven't done anything then you have nothing to fear." If you personally have no issue with the government's information fishing that is your decision. However, privacy is not a privilege to be suspended on a whim. To invade an individual's privacy takes serious legal cause and producible evidence. Mere suspicion is not adequate grounds. The government cannot snoop for cause then issue a warrant. It turns the entire Constitution on its head.

Red tape and legal barriers exist for a reason. They are designed to be inefficient and troublesome. A streamlined and efficient government is a terrible sight to behold. When one brings to mind names like Gestapo and KGB we recoil in disgust, and rightly so. How could people tolerate something so horrible? Slowly and insidiously it seems. The stated goals of these organizations was security of the homeland; a noble cause surely. While I am not insinuating that the Department of Homeland Security is on par with these organizations, legislation such as the Patriot Act gives far too much leeway under the guise of "security" and "counter-terrorism." It is feasible to extrapolate that, given enough time, this organization could grow quite Orwellian. It has proven such in the 12 years since its founding with far too many examples of the DHS abusing its new-found authority. The only way to restrain these groups from abusing the rights of citizens (since they serve us to begin with) is through backlash and outcry. This is not an excess of "ego" as you characterize it.

The state has nearly unlimited resources working against an individual in the event of an investigation. There are only a handful of precious rights (once called inalienable) that protect you from this Goliath. The founding fathers and Enlightenment thinkers understood and defined the necessary protections required for a truly free, democratic society. Let us not forget the McCarthy era where people saw the Boogie man behind every street lamp. People were blacklisted, ruthlessly investigated, spied upon, and even jailed for what we would call free expression. Fear is a powerful (and effective) motivator. Being arrested under suspicion of terrorist activity from an NSL (let's say you express anti-US sentiments) and then are held without habeus corpus to be later tried by a military tribunal, would be a terrifying and realistic proposition. The Patriot Act conveniently removed all that pesky "red tape."

It is an exercise of one's ego. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why would you be investigated? The western world does not operate, let alone, is educated enough, to not follow through on practices being generated nearly over a generation ago. It's common knowledge to understand that mistakes are made. If you haven't smelt the roses yet, no one is perfect and all decisions aren't carried through perfectly. It's common sense... lol Innocent people dying in war is also unavoidable. Won't be surprised you share personality characteristics of those people as well and would rather have no protection then something proactive.

...people who have no idea what they are talking about and refuting any nonsense, in which they'll be opposed towards such arguments before hand, is just pointless to argue with. Removing that 'pesky red tape' sure kept educated Canadians in a stable economic and political structure. Internal threats, like the FLQ, were easily dealt with where most of the issues were merely flamboyant fear-mongeling dramatics stating the similar arguments of yourself. Frankly, in the end, Canada was in a much more stable state, the FLQ was effectively eliminated, and those kids making big scenes that the government is scary quickly got over it and moved on as no harm was actually done - they were just merely being over-dramatic.

So read up on how these things actually operate before spreading such non-sense. Cheers! biggrin.gif
Edited by Domino - 6/5/13 at 12:57am
post #44 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

It is an exercise of one's ego. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why would you be investigated? The western world does not operate, let alone, is educated enough, to not follow through on practices being generated nearly over a generation ago. It's common knowledge to understand that mistakes are made. If you haven't smelt the roses yet, no one is perfect and all decisions aren't carried through perfectly. It's common sense... lol Innocent people dying in war is also unavoidable. Won't be surprised you share personality characteristics of those people as well and would rather have no protection then something proactive.

...people who have no idea what they are talking about and refuting any nonsense, in which they'll be opposed towards such arguments before hand, is just pointless to argue with. Removing that 'pesky red tape' sure kept educated Canadians in a stable economic and political structure. Internal threats, like the FLQ, were easily dealt with where most of the issues were merely flamboyant fear-mongeling dramatics stating the similar arguments of yourself. Frankly, in the end, Canada was in a much more stable state, the FLQ was effectively eliminated, and those kids making big scenes that the government is scary quickly got over it and moved on as no harm was actually done - they were just merely being over-dramatic.

So read up on how these things actually operate before spreading such non-sense. Cheers! biggrin.gif

then again being complacent and trusting does nothing...
post #45 of 65
We are constantly loosing our rights as American Citizens after 9/11 and what is really scary nobody seems to care.
We must as American Citizens stand up against loosing our rights and hold our Government responsible to up hold the constitution. This is the beggining of the end of our way of life as we knew it.
post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by MASSKILLA View Post

We are constantly loosing our rights as American Citizens after 9/11 and what is really scary nobody seems to care.
We must as American Citizens stand up against loosing our rights and hold our Government responsible to up hold the constitution. This is the beggining of the end of our way of life as we knew it.

We've never had a "way of life"

And for the love of god it's LOSING.
post #47 of 65
I have a hard time believing google search results would have any type of use in a real court. They are not a real form of proof, and without some other type of viable evidence they would not get someone convicted of anything.

Just to list a few reasons:
1) An IP is not a person. Many judges acknowledge this now.
2) http://lmgtfy.com/ can force people that are not knowledgeable to google things illegal. Click a shorten linked, go to jail? I think not.
3) Just because someone google'd something doesn't mean they were serious. How many times have you googled something you normally wouldn't just to make someone laugh/curious/bored/etc, but didn't really click any links, view any pictures, or download any programs from the results? Typing the worse possible thing into a search engine, is no more illegal than typing it in a chat conversation. A key example: They can't arrested pedophiles for chatting with kids UNTIL they attempt to meet.
4) Prison systems would be filled up in seconds, and courts would have queues into next decade if they started arresting people for things they've done on the internet. Everyone has done something stupid on the internet, and most people continue to do stupid stuff on the internet. You can't really hold it against anyone, because everyone does it. The internet is not a place to take things seriously.

With that said, It's still bullcrap... but rest assured you wouldn't be arrested for search results. They would need to find something else.
Edited by Murlocke - 6/5/13 at 3:52am
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post #48 of 65
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post #49 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarin View Post

The FBI sent out over 50,000 NSLs in 2006 alone. Bear in mind that NSLs are only supposed to be used for issues of utmost national security. I'm sure that number has grown in the interim. One does not have to be a fear-monger to find this practice of warrantless intrusions repugnant. I highly doubt there were over 50,000 instances of clear and present danger to the well-being of the nation. I am also tired of the argument that, "if you haven't done anything then you have nothing to fear." If you personally have no issue with the government's information fishing that is your decision. However, privacy is not a privilege to be suspended on a whim. To invade an individual's privacy takes serious legal cause and producible evidence. Mere suspicion is not adequate grounds. The government cannot snoop for cause then issue a warrant. It turns the entire Constitution on its head.

Red tape and legal barriers exist for a reason. They are designed to be inefficient and troublesome. A streamlined and efficient government is a terrible sight to behold. When one brings to mind names like Gestapo and KGB we recoil in disgust, and rightly so. How could people tolerate something so horrible? Slowly and insidiously it seems. The stated goals of these organizations was security of the homeland; a noble cause surely. While I am not insinuating that the Department of Homeland Security is on par with these organizations, legislation such as the Patriot Act gives far too much leeway under the guise of "security" and "counter-terrorism." It is feasible to extrapolate that, given enough time, this organization could grow quite Orwellian. It has proven such in the 12 years since its founding with far too many examples of the DHS abusing its new-found authority. The only way to restrain these groups from abusing the rights of citizens (since they serve us to begin with) is through backlash and outcry. This is not an excess of "ego" as you characterize it.

The state has nearly unlimited resources working against an individual in the event of an investigation. There are only a handful of precious rights (once called inalienable) that protect you from this Goliath. The founding fathers and Enlightenment thinkers understood and defined the necessary protections required for a truly free, democratic society. Let us not forget the McCarthy era where people saw the Boogie man behind every street lamp. People were blacklisted, ruthlessly investigated, spied upon, and even jailed for what we would call free expression. Fear is a powerful (and effective) motivator. Being arrested under suspicion of terrorist activity from an NSL (let's say you express anti-US sentiments) and then are held without habeus corpus to be later tried by a military tribunal, would be a terrifying and realistic proposition. The Patriot Act conveniently removed all that pesky "red tape."








Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

It is an exercise of one's ego. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why would you be investigated? The western world does not operate, let alone, is educated enough, to not follow through on practices being generated nearly over a generation ago. It's common knowledge to understand that mistakes are made. If you haven't smelt the roses yet, no one is perfect and all decisions aren't carried through perfectly. It's common sense... lol Innocent people dying in war is also unavoidable. Won't be surprised you share personality characteristics of those people as well and would rather have no protection then something proactive.

...people who have no idea what they are talking about and refuting any nonsense, in which they'll be opposed towards such arguments before hand, is just pointless to argue with. Removing that 'pesky red tape' sure kept educated Canadians in a stable economic and political structure. Internal threats, like the FLQ, were easily dealt with where most of the issues were merely flamboyant fear-mongeling dramatics stating the similar arguments of yourself. Frankly, in the end, Canada was in a much more stable state, the FLQ was effectively eliminated, and those kids making big scenes that the government is scary quickly got over it and moved on as no harm was actually done - they were just merely being over-dramatic.

So read up on how these things actually operate before spreading such non-sense. Cheers! biggrin.gif

Edited by l88bastar - 6/5/13 at 5:18am
post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post

It is an exercise of one's ego. If you aren't doing anything wrong, why would you be investigated? The western world does not operate, let alone, is educated enough, to not follow through on practices being generated nearly over a generation ago. It's common knowledge to understand that mistakes are made. If you haven't smelt the roses yet, no one is perfect and all decisions aren't carried through perfectly. It's common sense... lol Innocent people dying in war is also unavoidable. Won't be surprised you share personality characteristics of those people as well and would rather have no protection then something proactive.

...people who have no idea what they are talking about and refuting any nonsense, in which they'll be opposed towards such arguments before hand, is just pointless to argue with. Removing that 'pesky red tape' sure kept educated Canadians in a stable economic and political structure. Internal threats, like the FLQ, were easily dealt with where most of the issues were merely flamboyant fear-mongeling dramatics stating the similar arguments of yourself. Frankly, in the end, Canada was in a much more stable state, the FLQ was effectively eliminated, and those kids making big scenes that the government is scary quickly got over it and moved on as no harm was actually done - they were just merely being over-dramatic.

So read up on how these things actually operate before spreading such non-sense. Cheers! biggrin.gif

I don't think this could possibly be more ambiguous if you actually tried. You should probably start with a coherent point and then, and only then, present an argument. Western world not educated enough? Are you trying to say that all this is nothing more than a passing of some phase? Please clarify and defend the existence of a surveillance state.

It is also pretty lazy to refute not a single one of my points and call it non-sense.
Edited by Solarin - 6/5/13 at 6:34am
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