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[AnandTech] Choosing a Gaming CPU at 1440p: Adding in Haswell - Page 5

post #41 of 90
Just in case my tone is lost through the internet and interpreted as ragey, Ian, I don't want you to take this personally.

I like what you are doing, but maybe ease off the conclusion portion and call the article what it is.

"An Examination of Average Framerate with Different CPUs at 1440p"

Calling it "Choosing a Gaming CPU at 1440p", is wildly inaccurate for what the test accomplishes. You're doing a disservice to your readers. There *will* be people who make purchases based on this advice, or form their own advice based on your conclusions. Those people are getting screwed.
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post #42 of 90
CPU is still important and we need faster CPU for games. The thing about CPU is that you cant test them suing GPU limitation games. Grab 2 x Titan OC @ 1080p no AA and test CPUs. I know in dome games CPU matter a lot. In BF3 MP for example. Yeah it might be 80fps vs 100fps but still one CPU is faster then the other. Also for those that want 120Hz the CPU need to be top of the time to get close to 120 fps.
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post #43 of 90
Pretty much.

You basically have to clock your processor at 4.5 and have something with really great single threaded performance to maintain low frame times in just about any UE3 game.
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post #44 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

So there is no point to going from 3770K to 4770K?

Games are GPU limited, it's not like the CPU isn't stronger, it's that it doesn't matter (yet).
post #45 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apolladan View Post

Games are GPU limited, it's not like the CPU isn't stronger, it's that it doesn't matter (yet).
That's patently untrue.

Look at the difference in frame time with a 3570K clocked at 200MHz intervals from 3.6-4.6.



That's just a tiny example.

There are some games that aren't CPU limited, but there are a ton which are CPU limited.

Bottlenecks don't always exist in one of the two places. They can, and do, exist on both the GPU and CPU at the same time. UE3, Source, and Blizzard games are prime examples of this. BF3 MP as well. Far Cry 3, Skyrim as well. Those are just a few off the top of my head. When one says "UE3" games, that includes a huuuuuge number of games as the UE3 titles are nearly endless.
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post #46 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michalius View Post

That's patently untrue.

Look at the difference in frame time with a 3570K clocked at 200MHz intervals from 3.6-4.6.



That's just a tiny example.

There are some games that aren't CPU limited, but there are a ton which are CPU limited.

Bottlenecks don't always exist in one of the two places. They can, and do, exist on both the GPU and CPU at the same time. UE3, Source, and Blizzard games are prime examples of this. BF3 MP as well. Far Cry 3, Skyrim as well. Those are just a few off the top of my head. When one says "UE3" games, that includes a huuuuuge number of games as the UE3 titles are nearly endless.

What resolution is that? Source is almost always CPU-bound by the way.
post #47 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apolladan View Post

Games are GPU limited, it's not like the CPU isn't stronger, it's that it doesn't matter (yet).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apolladan View Post

What resolution is that? Source is almost always CPU-bound by the way.
How do you resolve that both statements you made can be true? They mean the opposite.

But, that's at 1440p, So are all of TechReport's benches.

http://techreport.com/review/23246/inside-the-second-gaming-performance-with-today-cpus/3

Take a look at the different gaming benchmarks in there. It's a much more accurate look at gaming performance than Ian's article.
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post #48 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michalius View Post


How do you resolve that both statements you made can be true? They mean the opposite.

But, that's at 1440p, So are all of TechReport's benches.

http://techreport.com/review/23246/inside-the-second-gaming-performance-with-today-cpus/3

Take a look at the different gaming benchmarks in there. It's a much more accurate look at gaming performance than Ian's article.

How do they mean the opposite?

Low resolutions are CPU bound, the article is discussing 1440p, which is GPU-bound.

Edit: Took a look at those benchmarks, and while they're very useful for 1080p, they have no bearing on 1440p.
post #49 of 90
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michalius View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Well - as far as I can see he presents the data as well as conclusions so you can sort of make up your own mind about it. I do agree that we could use a lot more data, but considering that for most reviews its like anything older than last egenration does not exist at all I find his results rather interesting. I mean I have not seen many reviews looking, for example, at AMD Semprons and its even rarer to find one hooked up with decent enough GFX card for some entry level gaming.
You're right, and that's definitely the upshot of this article.

However, with caveats like this:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
A lot of readers have noted in the past that they would like to see minimum FPS values. The minimum FPS is a good measure to the point to for the sake of ‘the worst gameplay experience’, but even with our testing, it would be an effort to report it. I know a lot of websites do report minimum FPS, but it is important to realize that:

In a test that places AI in the center of the picture, it can be difficult to remain consistent. Take for example a run of Dirt 3 – this runs a standard race with several AI cars in which anything can happen. If in one of the runs there is a big six-car crash, lots of elements will be going on, resulting in a severe dip in FPS. In this run I get a minimum 6 FPS, whereas in others I get a minimum ~40 FPS. Which is the right number to report? Technically it would be 6 FPS, but then for any CPU that did not have a big crash pile-up, it would look better when theoretically it has not been put to the test..

Followed by this gross exaggeration:
Quote:
If I had the time to run 100 tests of each benchmark, I would happily provide histograms of data representing how often the minimum FPS value fluctuated between runs. But that just is not possible when finding a balance between complete testing and releasing results for you all to see
Anyone who has ever done benching knows you should run each test at least 5 times, and then either average the findings, or use *all* of it.

For the lack of proper performance measuring (as in, Frame Time) we are presented with this:
Quote:
While FCAT is a great way to test frame rates, it needs to be set up accordingly and getting data is not a simple run and gun for benchmark results as one would like – even more complicated in terms of data retrieval and analysis than FRAPS, which personally I tend not to touch with a barge pole. While I understand the merits of such a system, it would be ideal if a benchmark mode used FCAT in its own overlay to report data.
You say FCAT is too hard, and then discount Fraps, which has been proven to be plenty accurate in terms of reporting frame times on single cards. Even when it's off, it's still far more accurate than any FPS measurement, which is simply an average of frame times over a second.

So we have the writer admitting that this article is missing the most accurate measurements of performance. But then we get conclusions like this:
Quote:
If I were gaming today on a single GPU, the A8-5600K (or non-K equivalent) would strike me as a price competitive choice for frame rates, as long as you are not a big Civilization V player and do not mind the single threaded performance.
That can be literally translated as, "do not mind performing horribly at video game that is using two or fewer threads, and even BF3 multiplayer".

How can this sort of conclusion be drawn when the most important gaming data is completely missing?

Here's how the recommended 5600K performs with a single GPU in a typical CPU demanding game.





This is my point. You can't base conclusions on poor testing. I get the benefits of this article, especially comparing such a wide range of CPUs. But to acknowledge that the test is severely lacking due to time constraints, exaggerate on the difficulty of doing multiple runs to gather accurate data, and then finish the article with a conclusion on which processor to buy in a single GPU configuration that performs like absolute garbage (trust me, I know, I have a 5600K in my HTPC) is borderline offensive to me.

This should be relegated to a community amateur's benchmarks for some interesting data. It is precisely that. It's not an article that is worthy of actually basing consumer advice on. Doing so is disingenuous to the reader, and at odds with the whole point of journalism and consumer advice.

Anand, how did you guys okay this?

okay, you brought up some good points about the article however you also failed with your "presentation"; there you state, "this is how you make a cpu recommendation for a typical cpu demanding game" and toss up a couple of benchmarks without linking the article. so what conditions those tests were run and for what reason they ran them that way is unknown. and personally i do not consider skyrim at all since i do not play it but, thats my opinion. it appears you are more benchmark oriented than content aware.

so i guess you missed where PCI 3.0 x8/x8/x4 was fine for tr-fire but PCI 3.0 x8/x8 + PCI 2.0 x4 really sucks? was that because you failed to see that the author stated that he used the lesser of two evils because of the circumstances?

at least you were honest about your prejudice against the 5600K because of your bad experiences from it. but there are quite a number of people with personal experience also who would disagree. hell, i hate to admit myself being an intel fanboy that the Pentium is no longer the king of budget gaming CPUs as it was before trinity. i was appalled when a glorified HTPC chip was really a perfectly acceptable alternative suggestion for a budget system. but i am stubbornly starting to see that in a GPU bounce instance it is quite surprising chip . .as stated in the article.

maybe you ought to switch to decaf?
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post #50 of 90
I know Scott had a 1440p monitor he was doing testing on, thought for sure those were all at 1440p.

In any case, my above bench was done at 1440p and shows a dramatic difference with just altering the clock speed on the same processor.

There are a *lot* of game engines that are going to be CPU bound simply due to how the engine is constructed. With SC2, you have a game that uses a single thread. With UE3 games, they only use two threads. How powerful your processor is on a per-thread basis pretty much determines a max frame rate.

These issues are often glossed over when you simply look at 'Average FPS', because taking the average of an average (FPS being an average of all frame time data over a second) is a really bad way to assess data.

Things like erratic frame times, 'hitching' or when frame times rise over a certain threshold for a short period of time, or even a good idea of what the game runs like is all thrown out. That gets hidden in the averages because they are relatively tiny figures, and have a hard time making an impact over 1000+ data points which are averaged out twice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

okay, you brought up some good points about the article however you also failed with your "presentation"; there you state, "this is how you make a cpu recommendation for a typical cpu demanding game" and toss up a couple of benchmarks without linking the article. so what conditions those tests were run and for what reason they ran them that way is unknown. and personally i do not consider skyrim at all since i do not play it but, thats my opinion. it appears you are more benchmark oriented than content aware.

so i guess you missed where PCI 3.0 x8/x8/x4 was fine for tr-fire but PCI 3.0 x8/x8 + PCI 2.0 x4 really sucks? was that because you failed to see that the author stated that he used the lesser of two evils because of the circumstances?

at least you were honest about your prejudice against the 5600K because of your bad experiences from it. but there are quite a number of people with personal experience also who would disagree. hell, i hate to admit myself being an intel fanboy that the Pentium is no longer the king of budget gaming CPUs as it was before trinity. i was appalled when a glorified HTPC chip was really a perfectly acceptable alternative suggestion for a budget system. but i am stubbornly starting to see that in a GPU bounce instance it is quite surprising chip . .as stated in the article.

maybe you ought to switch to decaf?
Those are Tech Report's benches.

As I said, I think there is a lot of interesting data in the article, but using it as a basis for consumer advice on which CPU to buy is really limited. I think Ian knows this, which is why he included all of the 'yeah I know I'm missing this data, but it's hard' caveats in the introduction.

I normally don't comment on articles like this, as you find bad methodology the norm on places like HardOCP and Tom's, but Anand is one of those few sites that normally has an amazingly high bar for content. Seeing something like this on the front page with a conclusion that isn't backed up by anything substantial at all is a bit disheartening to me.
Edited by Michalius - 6/4/13 at 3:53pm
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