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Hybrid Drive vs Performance HDD for games and programs - Page 2

post #11 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

There's no way a 7200RPM drive with platters under 500GB will even come close to an SSD (assuming you're not connection limited like SATA2 would) on any read/write function. If you want the fastest drive you can get then you need to get a larger one (generally speaking for SSD and HDD). Even something as low end as Samsung's 840TLC models become much faster the bigger they get. And while it may be age...my 500GB WD Black is slower than my 1TB Hitachi.

7200 RPM is a good HDD speed. Not as much heat as a Raptor, but better performance than your typical storage-only drive. My motherboard of choice in this build is something with at least one SATA III connection, so that won't be an issue. I will, however, dispute your speed claim. Yes, if I'm ripping Blu-ray movies on a daily basis, then the larger capacity SSDs will be better since it's being written to. But from my understanding, looking at the benchmarks for the smaller SSDs, the read speed is roughly the same. Even the 840 TLC vs the 840 MLC have about the same read speeds (see here and here) minus 4k speeds, where the Pro is about 30% faster, and this is testing the 512 GB Pro vs the 250 GB Standard. Outside of installs, I won't be doing any sort of heavy-duty writing, so that's mostly moot. Right now, I'm really on the fence about this. So thanks a lot seross69. This is all your fault. wink.gif
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post #12 of 19
If you are good about keeping your drives defragged (I use O&O mostly, because of the drive sector options), then a good majority of game files will be pure sequential reads, the Hard Drive's native habitat wink.gif

Also, the reason the WD10EZEX outperforms the WD VR 1TB despite the latter having an advantage in rotational velocity, is because the former has a single 1TB platter (for a 1TB drive) resulting in ~3x the areal density of the THREE PLATTER VelociRaptor (I've read reports of people getting 3x333GB platters, 3x400GB platters, and 3x450GB platters or something like that). If you can keep your games on the outer third of the platter, and with 800GB free at the moment mine most certainly are, then you get an extremely consistent ~190-205MB/sec sequential read speed.

Also, I said that the difference between having the games on SSD vs the WD10EZEX results in BARELY ANY decrease in load time, not that there is no difference whatsoever. I just don't feel 1-2sec is worth the much more valuable SSD space for a number of games. Example: loading the first level in a new campaign in Crysis 1, SSD = 7.419sec and WD10EZEX = 8.821sec. I do a lot of write-heavy work on my SSD (audio editing), so I am cautious and prefer to have as much free space available as possible, specifically by not putting programs on it that don't have a SIGNIFICANT benefit. I've got it over-provisioned by 17.4% and have never once had it more than 40% full, yet after a year, it's "Drive Wear Index Percentage" (or whatever it's called) is still at 100%, I've never seen it drop except for ONE time, when it went to 99.9% for about an hour.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a crazy person; I have my browsers, audio editing programs, benchmarks, and games like Mass Effect 3, Metro2033, and such installed on it, because with them I definitely notice a difference (although now that I'm using a small RAM Disk for my browser cache, it's the best of both worlds... Can't beat Quad-Channel DDR3-2392 9-12-10-29 1T for some fast cache speeds wink.gif ).

I myself own a few Raptor/VR drives, including some of the "OG" 37 Gig ones with the "fake SATA" (IDE to SATA bridge chip), up to the most modern 1TB VelociRaptor. Only one I regret getting rid of ever was the Raptor X (plexi cover was so '05-'07 cool!). Personally, I think they're ideal for a large capacity "scratch disk", for large Photoshop/Lightroom/etc projects especially if short-stroked and given a friend to create a RAID0 array. That's where the VR's truly shine.

Also, there's NO DOUBT that the VR will get better 4K random performance than the WD10EZEX or anything else short of enterprise level drives, which was always its main selling point; a fast OS drive for the masses. However, nowadays that 50% boost over it's "typical" 7200rpm brethren doesn't seem like all that much when even a bargain bin SSD will perform those Reads/Writes at ~25-40x the speed of the VR, if not faster.
When you add in the fact that even the 1TB VR, cursed by its designers' (frankly stupid) decision to make it a 3-platter drive, is anywhere from 50 to 80MB/sec slower than the likes of the 1TB/Platter WD10EZEX or Seagate 7200.14 drives in sequential R/W performance, and we suddenly have a very expensive platter drive that is quickly losing its niche, if it hasn't already.

I honestly expect the VelociRaptor line to die after this current lineup, unless WD wises the freak up and makes them single-platter drives with a MINIMUM of 16GB SLC NAND Flash per 250GB of Mechanical Storage space; forget the useless (in all practical senses) and pitiful 16, 32, or 64 MEGAbytes of cache, we should have 16, 32, or 64 GIGABYTES of on-drive cache! They could easily dominate the market with such drives, I mean come on, the Seagate hybrid drives took a step BACK, from being decent 7200rpm 2.5" HDD's to 5400rpm HDD's with a downgrade in the quality of NAND, going from SLC to MLC...
The WD board of directors needs to quickly look into removing their craniums from their rectums, and realize that the only thing killing mechanical storage progress...is THEM! Sure, they can't design an SSD to save their lives, but they have made some big acquisitions (Hitachi's and Toshiba's HDD divisions come to mind...), and big acquisitions like that almost always bring big talent. They ABSOLUTELY have the means to bring storage technology into 2013, instead of keeping us (for the most part) stuck in 2010 or so; hell, it wouldn't even be that expensive! It's basic business strategy: produce a product that outclasses your competitors' in every way (i.e. outperforms and is more reliable), spend money marketing it heavily, and sell it at LESS than expected retail pricing (i.e. 1TB 2.5" 7.2K/10Krpm single-platter HDD with ~32-64GB SLC or eMLC NAND, using a new and advanced caching algorithm that is partially modifiable by the end user... for $150 MAX), with the flagship coming in at say $150 but the "little siblings" with 1/2 and 1/4 the size coming in at "more affordable" $110 and $75 price points, respectively.
If executed properly, Western Digital would send Seagate into SUCH a panic that they would be forced to either innovate or die. The fact that the Momentus XT debuted THREE YEARS AGO, and now when we get its successor, it is a WORSE drive for MORE MONEY, should tell you everything you need to know about the immense laziness and greed that is oh-so-prevalent in these industries...
   
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post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

7200 RPM is a good HDD speed. Not as much heat as a Raptor, but better performance than your typical storage-only drive. My motherboard of choice in this build is something with at least one SATA III connection, so that won't be an issue. I will, however, dispute your speed claim. Yes, if I'm ripping Blu-ray movies on a daily basis, then the larger capacity SSDs will be better since it's being written to. But from my understanding, looking at the benchmarks for the smaller SSDs, the read speed is roughly the same. Even the 840 TLC vs the 840 MLC have about the same read speeds (see here and here) minus 4k speeds, where the Pro is about 30% faster, and this is testing the 512 GB Pro vs the 250 GB Standard. Outside of installs, I won't be doing any sort of heavy-duty writing, so that's mostly moot. Right now, I'm really on the fence about this. So thanks a lot seross69. This is all your fault. wink.gif

LOL. Of course the difference is "real world negligible"; but hey we're on a forum where I've seen people bicker over a frame latencies that no person could hope to notice. The other reason I say go big is if you're completely paranoid about keeping your SSD alive you have even more space to prolong it's life (not that we really need to but still).

So to me unless the HDD is 1TB and a Black or similar performance drive I'd go for the SSDs. Seems they're more reliable these days as well.

EDIT: Whatever nleksan said about platters. I second that.
Edited by Rookie1337 - 6/7/13 at 1:19pm
     
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post #14 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nleksan View Post

I honestly expect the VelociRaptor line to die after this current lineup, unless WD wises the freak up and makes them single-platter drives with a MINIMUM of 16GB SLC NAND Flash per 250GB of Mechanical Storage space; forget the useless (in all practical senses) and pitiful 16, 32, or 64 MEGAbytes of cache, we should have 16, 32, or 64 GIGABYTES of on-drive cache! They could easily dominate the market with such drives, I mean come on, the Seagate hybrid drives took a step BACK, from being decent 7200rpm 2.5" HDD's to 5400rpm HDD's with a downgrade in the quality of NAND, going from SLC to MLC...
The WD board of directors needs to quickly look into removing their craniums from their rectums, and realize that the only thing killing mechanical storage progress...is THEM! Sure, they can't design an SSD to save their lives, but they have made some big acquisitions (Hitachi's and Toshiba's HDD divisions come to mind...), and big acquisitions like that almost always bring big talent. They ABSOLUTELY have the means to bring storage technology into 2013, instead of keeping us (for the most part) stuck in 2010 or so; hell, it wouldn't even be that expensive! It's basic business strategy: produce a product that outclasses your competitors' in every way (i.e. outperforms and is more reliable), spend money marketing it heavily, and sell it at LESS than expected retail pricing (i.e. 1TB 2.5" 7.2K/10Krpm single-platter HDD with ~32-64GB SLC or eMLC NAND, using a new and advanced caching algorithm that is partially modifiable by the end user... for $150 MAX), with the flagship coming in at say $150 but the "little siblings" with 1/2 and 1/4 the size coming in at "more affordable" $110 and $75 price points, respectively.
If executed properly, Western Digital would send Seagate into SUCH a panic that they would be forced to either innovate or die. The fact that the Momentus XT debuted THREE YEARS AGO, and now when we get its successor, it is a WORSE drive for MORE MONEY, should tell you everything you need to know about the immense laziness and greed that is oh-so-prevalent in these industries...

1) Let's hope they get their craniums out of their rectums before the defecation hits the oscillation. smile.gif

2) So basically a hybrid drive is just an HDD with a thousand times bigger cahce?

3) They are bringing the tech to the future, just very slowly given their co-monopoly with Seagate. Check THIS out.

4) Would using some sort of program to allow short-stroking help performance in any significant way?

5) So... considering real-world performance, that means I can get a TB Blue, a 3 TB Green, and whatever 128 GB SSD is the best value. That puts the total cost, given current prices, at $85 +/- 5 + $120 +/- 5 + $110 +/- 10 for a minimum of $305 and a maximum of $345 and no need for external back-ups. Sounds good to me.
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post #15 of 19
I think you're missing my point... The BLACK is SLOWER than the BLUE! IT HAS ZERO ADVANTAGE with the exception of an extra 2yrs warranty, but being as the Blue has 1/2 to 1/3rd the moving parts, it's inherently more reliable anyway.

If you're going to go with a WD Black, the only one I'd ever recommend (right now) is the 500GB model, as it actually uses a single 1TB Platter but only utilizes the outer half of it or something like that (I KNOW it's a single platter, about 98% sure it's a single, short-stroked 1Tb platter). The WD1002FAEX and its ilk are simply slower, hotter, noisier, poorer-performing, and more expensive than the WD10EZEX.

The ONLY time you'd notice a difference is with a very large database running extremely high queue depths constantly, in which case the Black's slightly better access times would make it ever so slightly better, but that's not the situation any of us are in.

This is just another example of how I think WD is "flipping" themselves over ( wink.gif ), releasing their highest performing drive to date, not as part of their "Enthusiast Line", but as part of their cheaper "Mainstream" line... Seriously, what kind of business sense is that???
   
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post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nleksan View Post

I think you're missing my point... The BLACK is SLOWER than the BLUE! IT HAS ZERO ADVANTAGE with the exception of an extra 2yrs warranty, but being as the Blue has 1/2 to 1/3rd the moving parts, it's inherently more reliable anyway.

Um...
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

5) So... considering real-world performance, that means I can get a TB Blue, a 3 TB Green, and whatever 128 GB SSD is the best value.

Honestly though, I was surprised too when people started talking about the entry-level budget hard drive outperforming the series labeled as performance drives. I have come to terms with it now, though.

EDIT: Wow I feel stupid now. Instead of debating with myself and getting second and third and fourth opinions, I can just wait for my 840 to get here. After I image my entire (boot) hard drive then I can compare times (granted, from a 2.5" 5400 RPM drive to an SSD, so there might be a BIT of a difference) with the different drives. Well, I'm off to time things loading. Wish me luck!

EDIT 2: time loading screen is shown in games with a Hitachi 2.5" 5400 RPM 500 GB HDD and a Samsung 840 250 GB:


Star Wars Battlefront II

Kamino (on disc):
HDD: 4.9 seconds, 4.8 seconds
SSD: 2.6 seconds, 2.3 seconds

Bespin (in mod folder):
HDD: 6.3 seconds, 5.9 seconds
SSD: 4.3 seconds, 4.3 seconds


Impossible Creatures
HDD: About 8 to 10 seconds to load the game, then:
SSD: About 4 or 5 seconds to load the game, then:

Face Off (1/4 the size of a standard map):
HDD: 6.3 seconds, 6.2 seconds
SSD: 6.0 seconds, 6.0 seconds

Bikini Atoll (4 times the size of a standard map):
HDD: 14.6 seconds, 12.2 seconds
SSD: 13.0 seconds, 12.3 seconds

Impossible Creatures only improves times by about 5%, but Battlefront II is easily 30-50% faster. This is comparing an SSD to a budget, low-performance HDD too. So in reality, I expect a performance HDD will be a second or two slower, and it just isn't worth the money to get a big SSD.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 6/10/13 at 3:35pm
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post #17 of 19
Thread Starter 
Bump because of new data.
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post #18 of 19
That is some interesting results. What is your connection? SATA2 or SATA3(I know it shouldn't matter that much but for loading games it might bottleneck an SSD). Also, I think doing a cloned image might harm the SSDs performance but I only speculate because it seems to be a problem for many people in that they eventually seem to have problems later on or slower speeds (but this is all from reading people posting on newegg, td, and amazon so speculation). Honestly, with sequential reads which I think games would fall under during loading you're probably limited on SATA2 in a way that wouldn't make the difference that worth while and also some single platter higher density drives should be pretty fast in that sense by design. I game in Linux on an SSD and Windows on a "slow" WD Black from 2008 and even knowing that the Linux version of L4D2 isn't finished yet....it only loads about 1-2 seconds faster even though the max sequential benchmarks I get from my WDBlack are in the 80-90MBs while my SSD hits the SATA2 limit around about 250MBs. Thanks for running the tests and the data.
     
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post #19 of 19
Thread Starter 
I'm almost certain it's SATA II. I cloned it from an OEM install as I have no disc. I've done all the recommended tweaks to the system though. If you want more results then I'm sorry because that hard disk died 3 hours after I cloned it when I dropped it. Three inches above my desk. In a case. frown.gif I'm making it into a nice clock now.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 6/11/13 at 1:40pm
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