Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › A possible reason why Intel was forced to use TIM instead of solder with IB & Haswell
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

A possible reason why Intel was forced to use TIM instead of solder with IB & Haswell

post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
Apologies if this has been posted before, but I saw this mentioned on another site and I think it's worthy to post this to help explain the use of TIM (and the high temps resulting from it).



You can see the over each generation, the die of Intel CPUs has been shrinking; the die area for IB and Haswell appears to be roughly the same (same 22nm process?).

This research shows that there are some issues with using solder combined with increasingly smaller dies (if I understood the research and the other person correctly): with the reduction in die size, thermal-cycling-driven fatigue cracking between the indium and the indium-gold intermetallic became uncontrollable leading to voids forming in the solder. As a result, Intel has had to switch to using TIM, a less efficient heat conductor compared to solder.

However, I don't think this excuses them from using perceived poor quality TIM under the IHS leading to higher temps compared to if they did use some quality TIM
Edited by scrlk - 6/7/13 at 3:16pm
post #2 of 15
I have a better yet not so scientific approach. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
post #3 of 15
Who says the TIM is poor quality? I'm sure it's just fine for a stock clocked CPU. LOL.

Greg
post #4 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watagump View Post

I have a better yet not so scientific approach. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The cost of TIM vs. solder is probably in the region of pence at most - I bet they would have used solder if they could - again, there are cracking issues.
post #5 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammong View Post

Who says the TIM is poor quality? I'm sure it's just fine for a stock clocked CPU. LOL.

Greg

This is a valid point, as some feel its not the TIM so much as its the glue creating a space.
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
post #6 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrlk View Post

The cost of TIM vs. solder is probably in the region of pence at most - I bet they would have used solder if they could - again, there are cracking issues.

Maybe be so, but when we are dealing with huge amounts of CPU's, pennies add up much quicker. $1 isn't a lot of money, but if you are selling millions of CPU's or anything else, that's a lot of money.
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
post #7 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watagump View Post

Maybe be so, but when we are dealing with huge amounts of CPU's, pennies add up much quicker. $1 isn't a lot of money, but if you are selling millions of CPU's or anything else, that's a lot of money.

Understandable, but in that case - why did they use solder with SB? I do understand there is a fiscal element to this, but to me, the tradeoff between increased material cost and greatly improved thermal performance is simple to resolve.

Oh well, I can only hope that Skylake offers something interesting.
post #8 of 15
I agree its fine with a stocked clocked cpu than tell intel not to sell K series chips which are intended to be overclocked, it only makes sense.
post #9 of 15
The TIM used is probably of good quality, but Intel likely selected it for longevity/durability more than raw performance. Bondline thickness is another issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrlk View Post

The cost of TIM vs. solder is probably in the region of pence at most - I bet they would have used solder if they could - again, there are cracking issues.

Indium based solder is not cheap, neither is the gold in the wetting layer they have to use; the total cost may well be significant in the volumes involved.

That's not to say cracking isn't an issue.
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.3/3.6GHz core/uncore, 1.225/1.2v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) 2x Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC New Edition (10036... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-11-12-27-T1, 1.37v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.05) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Cooler Master Nepton 280L 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Reference R9 290X w/Stilt's MLU 1000e / 1375m E... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.3/3.6GHz core/uncore, 1.225/1.2v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) 2x Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC New Edition (10036... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-11-12-27-T1, 1.37v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.05) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Cooler Master Nepton 280L 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Reference R9 290X w/Stilt's MLU 1000e / 1375m E... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
post #10 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrlk View Post

Understandable, but in that case - why did they use solder with SB? I do understand there is a fiscal element to this, but to me, the tradeoff between increased material cost and greatly improved thermal performance is simple to resolve.

Oh well, I can only hope that Skylake offers something interesting.

I wish we really did know. with all the high tech robots etc out there, it seems they could do solder, smaller die or not. I even posted someplace, use solder and charge more if there was indeed money behind the decision. In real world sales, most people are not like us. They buy a CPU and put it in and be done, the rest by a system already done.
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
Gaming
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 3500k @ 4.6 1.25v Z77A-GD65 (MS-7751) Asus GTX 770 SLI Asus GTX 770 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Samsung 840 Sandisk Ultra Plus Pioneer DVD 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Cooler Master 212 EVO Windows Ultimate 64 Qnix QX2710 Cooler Master V700 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
NZXT Phantom 630 Razor Deathadder Roccat Taito Asus Xonar DSX 
Other
Logitech Z5300E 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Intel CPUs
  • A possible reason why Intel was forced to use TIM instead of solder with IB & Haswell
Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › A possible reason why Intel was forced to use TIM instead of solder with IB & Haswell