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Better Value RAM than PSC?

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 
So I'm in the market for 8GB of RAM, again. I only need 8GB (so 2GB sticks are viable, like PSC) and I'm willing to dig and search for them (again, end of life PSC is viable to me). However, just curious if any better value exists. I need RAM for a 24/7 air, ambient aggressive overclock - I enjoy overclocking RAM for 24/7 usage and the programs I use specifically benefit significantly from RAM overclocking such as 2400mhz vs 2000mhz, so don't tell me 'omg why waste time'. That I enjoy it should be good enough.

Crucial LPs 1600 CL8 1.35vs seem to only hit ~2133mhz CL11 ~1.8v, and are $70
Samsungs are just super expensive and do about that same overclock, at like $100+

However I found these RAM on newegg:
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model F3-2400C11D-8GXM
$64
2400mhz CL11-13-13-31 1.65v
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231666

I've been told they should be single-sided hynix MFR, and can do 2600mhz CL9 on ~1.8v. I've also heard that being single sided, they lose bank interleave, meaning they suffer a significant performance decrease and 2600 CL9 with no banking < 2400mhz CL8 with banking (PSC).

There's also a few other similar 2400 CL10 1.65v kits:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007611%20600006069%20600006145&IsNodeId=1&name=DDR3%202400%20%28PC3%2019200%29
Around $70+

Anyways, just curious if I should get PSC again, or something else. I'm not looking for high mhz validation here, I'm looking for what will perform the best. The programs I use benefit more from speed than timing, which probably just means they benefit from ram speed in general. PSC works for me, and I'm not paying $100+ for RAM, and even $60+ I feel reluctant to drop. I'd be perfectly happy to use PSC again, just wondering if this Gskill or anything else might be a better value.

Thanks.
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post #2 of 9
Get yourself 2400C9 Samsung based RAM -(2x4Gb),I already recommended you a set of TeamXc9 when it was still available and cheap
This are still a bargain ,posted in classified section HERE,this is very nice 24/7 set that should make you happy
    
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post #3 of 9
Thread Starter 
What would that samsung RAM do at a proper max voltage (which is what, 1.75-1.8v with 70C max, like all ram right?)? I mean 2400mhz CL9 for twice the price of PSC that does 2400 CL8 doesn't sound very appealing to me.

That guy's low binned PSC adata is a joke, PSC is quite common on ebay for $50-60. It wasn't nearly as rare as I originally thought, once you start looking for gskill and corsair psc there's just hundreds of them still available for sale. Newegg even has some PSC for $70 right now brand new.

I also PM'd that guy and he was extremely rude. I asked him if he'd be willing to drop the price to $50 and he responded with an 'lol no'. Which is ridiculous, why would I pay $75 for his low binned PSC when $50 is extremely common on ebay, and there's stuff like what I linked in the OP for $63 or other 2400mhz ram for $60-70 brand new. It's one thing to be rude to a fellow forum member, but a customer is a customer.

I must have either not been in the market when you made a recommendation or didn't see it, I'm sorry. I have no recollection of your recommendation. You always make great posts so I wish I saw that.
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post #4 of 9
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Hi, I was interested in the following:

http://www.gskill.com/products.php?index=598&c1=&c2=&search=cmlwamF3c3g=

Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231666&nm_mc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r&cm_mmc=OTC-pr1c3grabb3r-_-Memory+(Desktop+Memory)-_-G.SKILL-_-20231666

G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2400 (PC3 19200) Desktop Memory Model F3-2400C11D-8GXM


Is this RAM single sided or dual sided?

We at Overclock.net, discussed this ram, as shown in this post in this thread:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1268061/ocn-ram-addict-club-gallery/1800_100#post_20155585

And came to the conclusion these must be lower binned Single Sided Hynix MFRs, meaning they will not have bank interleave, and thus be a good 400mhz+ worse than double sided RAM per clock

So, I just wanted to confirm with you, are these single sided or double sided RAM?

Thanks,
B-dog
Quote:
Dear B-Dog

Our F3-2400C11D-8GXM model are dual sided.

We hope that would provide a conclusion to your discussion.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again. We’ll do what we can to help. Thank you!

Best Regards

Tech Support Team, F.A.E.

G.SKILL International Enterprise Co., Ltd.
8F No. 69 DongXing Rd., Xinyi District
Taipei City, 11070 Taiwan (R.O.C.)
+886 2 2766-7889 #861
http://www.gskill.us/forum/

Looks like I've found the new PSC, the new Samsung, the new Crucial LPs here with this new RAM.
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post #5 of 9
I just posted in a different thread here in the Intel Memory sub forum some of the speed/timings/voltages configurations I have hit with the G.Skill Trident X 2400 9-11-11-31 kit, which is currently the best performing memory for the price IMHO.

I am right there with you in regards to the memory clocks being beneficial and "don't tell me otherwise", because I have been overclocking memory for a while, using a huge variety of kits from many different manufacturers, and thousands of benching runs. To say that "1600 is all youwwill ever need" is to say that you have no clue what you're talking about, have no experience with high speed memory, and/or are simply parroting back what you have heard others say. I don't gethhow people like you and I, who have actually experienced (and at least for me, tested) the difference, get told we're crazy or are wasting money?

Anyway, I've been spending time with my Z77 rig (3770K delidded with PK1 @ 5.1-5.3Ghz, Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UP7, MSI GTX680 Lightning @ 1438core/3874mem, NZXT HALE90V2 1200W PSU, and XSPC Raystorm/Aquacomputer 680LTG full coverage GPU block/XSPC Z77 UP7 Block, UT60 560 + EX360 rads P-P fans, MCP35X2 pumps, Bitspower 400mL Res, Bitspower/Monsoon Fittings, old case turned into test bench, and a 50gal cooler I'm working on turning into a chiller).
Specifically, I have been using it for RAM overclocking as I got very lucky and have an IMC capable of doing at least 2900 with just 1.1v.

If you want phenomenal performance for a very good price, I have not found anything yet that beats the G.Skill Trident X 2400 9-11-11-31 kit. Dual sided with Samsung IC's, it requires very little voltage when overclocking. As in, 2666 9-12-11-32 1T with 1.650v, 2600 9-12-12 with 1.635v, 2400 9-10-9-26 1T with 1.69v, and 2400 8-10-10-27 1T with 1.685v; oh and 2600 9-11-9-29 1T (1.685v).
For a kit that cost $83.49 with a Newegg discount code (normally 99), I am blown away by the performance.

Ivy Bridge very much favors high frequency over tight timings, so you should look at raw speed above anything else, but as I'm sure you know, it's always better to have tighter timings at any given speed than having to run 12-14-14-36 2T just to reach 2400!
Oh, another huge benefit of the kit... I have yet to find a speed where it will not run completely stable with a command rate of 1T, even with the timings at the brink of instability it will not have a single complaint about running 1T.

I have a lot more to say about the kit and my experiences with it, but since I'm typing from my phone I'd rather not have to write out another wall of text, having just written about the same thing in a thread that should be right above or below this one. Read my post there, as I feel that it would be applicable here.

I hope that I can help you with this, memory is one of my favorite things to mess around with and I have been hoarding DIMMs since the days of RAMBUS lol. I am more than happy to answer any questions I can, or share benchmark results for any of the kit's I own (or that friends own; about 115-120 total kits) to help you find what you need.

Cheers!
   
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Z77 Bench-a-lot
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post #6 of 9
Thread Starter 
I mean the difference is if you buy the right RAM (because when you get down to it, there's really only like 4-5 different types of RAM and a couple of subtypes), you can spend the exact same as the cheapest RAM and get slightly-less-than-top-of-the-line speed. You aren't going to do 2800mhz+ on some $50-70 8GB kit, but you can do 2000-2600mhz. Considering you are paying $0-20 extra, that's a pretty darn good deal. You won't find similar value in increase in performance anywhere else, ie $0-20 extra in motherboard isn't going to get you the same increase in FPS from the resultant overclock as it would from the RAM overclock.
Quote:
Specifically, I have been using it for RAM overclocking as I got very lucky and have an IMC capable of doing at least 2900 with just 1.1v.

wooow. On 4x2gb I could only do 2200mhz, and imc voltage had zero impact on stability (ie reduced to .990v was no more stable than 1.25v), and I've heard many others say the same (2200mhz wall). Crazy. The IMC is the main reason I figured to go haswell (it's not that I care about haswell or that it's great, but if you can sell your ivy for market value and try out new hardware... why not. Bought my i7-3770k+ud5h for $209+79, sold it for twice that in part of a complete build, which is well over their current ebay market resale value of $290+160, and which is way lower than the $290+115 I spend on i7-4770k+extreme4)

Those gskills are pretty expensive, that's twice the price of PSC. But 2600 CL9, that's a huge leap in performance over 2400 CL8 on less voltage. What could they do on ~1.8v (as i understand, all RAM basically maxes out around 1.8-1.9v)?
Quote:
Ivy Bridge very much favors high frequency over tight timings, so you should look at raw speed above anything else, but as I'm sure you know, it's always better to have tighter timings at any given speed than having to run 12-14-14-36 2T just to reach 2400!

I did a ton of benches on this subject actually, as when I added my 2nd 2x2gb kit of PSC to my system, suddenly my 2400mhz CL8-12-8-28 was unstable and I was pulling my hair out. Turned out the IMC couldn't handle 2400mhz with 4x2, as the new kit on it's own had no problem with 2400 CL8 in 2x2, but as I pulled my hair out I even was trying to make like 2400mhz CL13-15-13 work. It turns out, since 200mhz in DDR3 speed is a HUGE gap, that 2200mhz CL8 is roughly equivalent to like 2400mhz CL11 (the 2nd timing only affect write or something, and it's quite insignificant), given how ivy, as you say, cares so much more about speed than timing.

I don't do benching, but I love to know my system well, and I do streaming, which is extremely ram-speed dependent. As in, it cares a ton about pure RAM speed.

I already kinda threw down on the gskills I linked (double sided hynix). They are half price, and I'm more of a budget user and value oriented. Would that trident be twice as fast as these Gskills, or PSCs even? Probably not, right? Though those do sound like sweet numbers. I'm curious how these hynix are that I'm getting, I can't get an answer on it.
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post #7 of 9
I have not used the crazy expensive G.Skill Trident kit, I just got to 2900 with the 2800 kit.

In all honesty, anything above 2400 with good timings is only beneficial for benching. I have been working over the last few monthsto ccompare the relationship between RAM speed and game performance, using every possible combination of speed and timings I can achieve, on both the Z77 and X79 platforms. Though I am far from finished, there is a strong trend that began to show itself early on, and that is that the higher the frequency assuming relatively equivalent timings (ie 2400 9-11-11 = 2133 9-10-10), the higher the minimum FPS. Even at the same timings, frequency results in better minimum frame rates. It's only when you increase your timings by 2 or more for a single increase in speed that you will not get much/any benefit relative to one speed lower but significantly tighter.
Again, I am far from finished, and until this Nvidia driver nonsense is figured out my testing is on hold, but the results I've gotten thus far would indicate that each platform has a "sweet spot". For Z77, it would appear that DDR3-2400 9-11-11-31 1T is the ideal combination of speeds/timings, especially when you take pricing into consideration. X79 seems to be happiest with around 2133-2200 9-10-10-27 1T and most all chips can hit this frequency, although if you have a good IMC then 2333-2400 9-11-10-28 1T does offer a bit more performance.
I am using 1600 9-9-9-24 1T as my "baseline", but also have as tight as 1600 6-8-7-15 1T and 1333 6-7-7-14 1T to see the difference between low speed with extremely tight timings and higher speeds with the necessarily looser timings. The reason I started this testing (there's another thread in this section where I posted a number of results) was to see if I was correct in saying that 1600 is NOT "all you need" for gaming, and disprove the popular notion that faster memory is a waste of money with no real world benefits. It took less than a day to test 2133 vs 1600 and the results are universally in favor of the former, with min FPS being as much as 12fps higher on average in some games, and in no game did it not provide benefits attributable to the margin of error. The only game I don't have yet that I very much want to test is Starcraft 2, due to the huge CPU bottleneck in large games using AI players. Unfortunately, after spending so much on hardware and then just paying my whole next year's grad school tuition out of pocket, I'm a bit brokish.

As for the Hynix IC's, it depends on the exact IC type. Some will do an extra 200MHz, or so, while others are unable to crank out even an extra 50. Tightening timings is also seemingly very much luck of the draw. When I finish testing, I may consider pulling some heatspreaders to see the identity of the different Hynix IC's, but after trying to remove the heatspreaders from one kit and nearly losing a few IC's (yes, I know how to properly remove them), I am holding off.
   
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post #8 of 9
Thread Starter 
I don't game though, I do streaming. A lot different than gaming. If all I cared about was gaming I'd buy a phenom x4 and whatever GPU necessary for the game I play at the time.

Minimum FPS is the most important thing when it comes to gaming performance though, so any increase in minimum fps is a huge gain. Especially in a game like sc2, that I play, where even overclocked i5's hit minimums o 25fps.

Just got the gskills, the heatspreader is weird and i cant take it off or take pics, but i could a section of it and see the ic.

hynix
HTQ2GB3CFR
PBC 209WA
DTLDAG6144
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post #9 of 9
I completely agree with everything you said about minimum FPS, and that's exactly why I'm slaving awayttesting so many memory configurations smile.gif So many peoplejjust don't realize, or refuse to realize, that memory speed can have a significant effect on how "smooth" a game plays.

Those are decent IC's. You won't be breaking any records, but they certainly won't ever hold you back. I have yet to find any real pattern to them, as some will take plenty of extra frequency but won't allow any loosening of timings, others will clock maybe 100-150Mhz higher (200-300DDR) at most but will allow for a drop in timings across the board, while others are somewhere in the middle. I am not the best person to be giving information on the CFR IC's, as I simply don't have as much experience with them as some other members.

Just an FYI - any G.Skill kit's IC's can be determined simply by the 5th thru 8th numbers of the serial number on the dimm.
   
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Heatkiller GTX680 "Hole Edition" Block + Backplate XSPC Single-Bay Res (Single 5.25 bay) EK Multioption Res X2 - Advanced 150 DD "Fill-Port Res" + Fill-Port Fitting (Red) 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
2x MCP35X + Heatsinks/80x15mm Fan XSPC EX420 Alphacool NeXXos UT60 240 6x Bgears Blasters 140mm 1800rpm Fans 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
4x Koolance 120x25mm 2600rpm Fans Comp/Rotary Fittings (BP/XSPC/Monsoon) Primoflex Pro LRT - White (1/2x3/4) Windows 7 Professional 64bit  
MonitorMonitorMonitorMonitor
Dell P2210Hb 21.5" 1920x1080p Viewsonic VA2012WB 20.1" LCD 1680x1050 Dell U3014 Eizo 27" 1440p 10bit RGB-LED Backlit AH-IPS Panel 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
55" LG HDTV (their top 2014 model) Ducky Mechanical (Browns) NZXT HALE90 850W + 8 blown-up AX1200/i's NZXT Switch 810 (White) 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
R.A.T.3 + MX510 My Desk GRADO RS1i Headphones Grado PS1000 Headphones 
OtherOtherOtherOther
Bitfenix Hydra Pro Fan Controller 5ch 30W/ch Bitfenix Alchemy Individually-Sleeved Extension... NZXT Individually-Sleeved Front Panel Wires (Bl... Phobya Sleeved 1x3pin-to-4x3pin Fan Splitter 
OtherOtherOther
Sleeved Wires w Paracord myself (no Heatshrink) Custom Front and Top Panels w HexxMesh *In Prog... Working on Custom Pedestal Prototype 
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Z77 Bench-a-lot
(31 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7 3930K @ 4.92Ghz Asus Rampage 4 Extreme EVGA GTX670 FTW 2GB  EVGA GTX780Ti Classified K|ngp|n Edition @ 1483... 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveHard Drive
EVGA GTX780Ti Classified K|ngp|n Edition @ 1483... 16GB G.Skill Ripjaws-Z @ DDR3-2248 9-10-9-26 1T Samsung 830 256GB SSD WD10EZEX 1TB HDD 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
WD10EALX 1TB HDD Seagate Barracuda 7200.14 1TB WD3200AAKS 320GB HDD WD5000HHTZ 10krpm 500GB VelociRaptor 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
LG/Hitachi Slim DVD-R/W Custom MB-Backside VRM-sinks (Copper) 3x NZXT RF-FX140LB 1-2krpm 98.3CFM Case Fans 2x Corsair SP120-PE Case Fans 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Heatkiller GTX680 "Hole Edition" Block + Backplate XSPC Single-Bay Res (Single 5.25 bay) EK Multioption Res X2 - Advanced 150 DD "Fill-Port Res" + Fill-Port Fitting (Red) 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
2x MCP35X + Heatsinks/80x15mm Fan XSPC EX420 Alphacool NeXXos UT60 240 6x Bgears Blasters 140mm 1800rpm Fans 
CoolingCoolingCoolingOS
4x Koolance 120x25mm 2600rpm Fans Comp/Rotary Fittings (BP/XSPC/Monsoon) Primoflex Pro LRT - White (1/2x3/4) Windows 7 Professional 64bit  
MonitorMonitorMonitorMonitor
Dell P2210Hb 21.5" 1920x1080p Viewsonic VA2012WB 20.1" LCD 1680x1050 Dell U3014 Eizo 27" 1440p 10bit RGB-LED Backlit AH-IPS Panel 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
55" LG HDTV (their top 2014 model) Ducky Mechanical (Browns) NZXT HALE90 850W + 8 blown-up AX1200/i's NZXT Switch 810 (White) 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
R.A.T.3 + MX510 My Desk GRADO RS1i Headphones Grado PS1000 Headphones 
OtherOtherOtherOther
Bitfenix Hydra Pro Fan Controller 5ch 30W/ch Bitfenix Alchemy Individually-Sleeved Extension... NZXT Individually-Sleeved Front Panel Wires (Bl... Phobya Sleeved 1x3pin-to-4x3pin Fan Splitter 
OtherOtherOther
Sleeved Wires w Paracord myself (no Heatshrink) Custom Front and Top Panels w HexxMesh *In Prog... Working on Custom Pedestal Prototype 
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