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post #11 of 18
Correct me if I'm wrong but the "copy once" means that only the computer that recorded it can watch it. And I thought I've read that you can share the ceton echo tuners over lan but then the computer its installed in can't use it. Again correct me if I'm wrong but the HD homerun just connects to your lan, plug it into the network with an Ethernet cable.
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post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigRod View Post

Thanks for the great detailed post. I find your setup interesting and functional. As I have stated I now have 4 1080P LCD tv's with maybe a 5th in the future.

So if I purchase an InfiniTV internal tuners for the HTPC, which will go in a wall unit in my family room that also houses my Yamaha home theatre, So this will only allow me to record and view live tv on that HTPC and no where else without a tuner. To be able to record and watch live TV on all other TV's I need the HD HomeRun Prime HDHR3-6CC-3x2 network tuner. Looks like I will need 3 M cable cards, two for the Homerun and 1 for the Infini. Just curious if you can put these cable cards downstream from a whole house cable amplifier? I do have one in the attic. My router is an Apple Time capsule and it should play well with this setup?


Well I learned something new today. I haven't used my Ceton InfiniTV pci in awhile and I checked Cones comment about sharing the tuners. It is possible to "share" an internal tuner. So you could do all internal tuners if you wanted or use a combination of internal and network tuners. If you do a network tuner like the HD Homerun or InfiniTV 5 eth then you would just plug them directly into your network at a switch or any ethernet jack. Shouldn't be any problems from putting it downstream from an amplifier. There are some coaxial filters than can be added if you start getting noise problems and channels not showing. Your router should be fine as long as there are wired connections everywhere. Using a network tuner over wireless is possible but sometimes problematic. I have a wireless N connection and it can slow things up from time to time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigRod View Post

I noticed the Homerun Prime needs these requirements:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Dual (or more) core processor. Intel Atom and AMD Fusion C/E/G/Z series are not recommended due to limited processing power.
Windows 7 Home Premium, Ultimate, Professional, or Enterprise
2GB RAM
4-8GB disk space per hour of HD recording, 1-2GB per hour of SD recording
100 or 1000Mbit Ethernet network, 1000Mbit recommended
Subscription to digital cable service
CableCARD (M-Card) from your cable provider (x2)
Video card with support for hardware decoding and HDCP (NVIDIA 9500 or newer, ATI HD3000 or newer, or Intel HD Graphics). ATI GPUs prior to the HD5000 series and Intel Sandy Bridge GPUs may have problems decoding some content including premium channels like HBO.
Display device that supports HDCP
DVI or HDMI connection between the video card and display. Note: VGA/component connections can also be used between the video card and display, but WMC may limit the resolution
If you are planning to use more than 4 tuners on a single PC, the TunerSalad program must be used to enable support for more than 4 tuners in WMC.

when it is saying it needs Dual or more Processor are they talking about the computer that will go with each tv as my other HTPC's. A little confused on this.

Yes your are right on the money on this. Those are the requirements for whatever PCs connect to the network tuner. I don't have any problems recording with my Zotac HD-11's and they have a Intel Atom D510 1.66 ghz Dual Core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigRod View Post

I like having a smaller HTPC next to the other TV's , sounds more practical and fictional. Sorry for all the questions but I have to draw a plan out and understand it fully before I dive in. That saves me a lot of problems in the long run.
I have no problem rewiring my house. I do have existing cat5e installed now but I feel it would be a good idea to start with new cat6a wiring to future proof and to prevent any problems since some of the wiring in my house will have to go distances of 250 to 300 feet which I believe might be a limit for cat6a . Have to look that up. Thanks for your guidance and great suggestions. Always nice to talk to someone that has done it already.

If your Cat5e connections are done well then I wouldn't bother pulling it and running cat6. It will be awhile before we start to see 10Gbps transfers and equipment in home networks. If you were starting from stretch then yea go ahead and run cat6 but if you have existing cat5e that are well terminated then don't bother.
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the "copy once" means that only the computer that recorded it can watch it. And I thought I've read that you can share the ceton echo tuners over lan but then the computer its installed in can't use it. Again correct me if I'm wrong but the HD homerun just connects to your lan, plug it into the network with an Ethernet cable.

Correct on all counts for this. I will add though that I don't have any issues with playback of copy once material to multiple machines. I shouldn't be able to do that but I can. Only thing I can think of is because of my WHS2011 and its connector software all the recordings go to and stay on the WHS box. When I watch from another machine all I am really doing is streaming it from the WHS box which is technically a DLNA server.

Ceton offers their solution with the Echo extenders. The content stays on the recording machine and you are just streaming it to the Echos. I've got an Echo in my closet and I really don't like the thing. It was always buggy and had massive delays between me telling it to do something and it actually doing it. Most of my friends have ditched them as well. Windows 8 does not support them currently (there are work arounds though)

All this said now. For bigRod it comes down to making a decision on small HTPC's or giving extenders a try. If you want to record and share premium content then the extenders are one way to go or you can go the network "shared" tuner route and let everyone record and store their premium content at specific TVs with small HTPCs. Most of your content should not be copy once. It does vary from cable company to cable company somewhat and usually only premium content is copy once. I did have a Fox channel that was copy once for some reason but that was probably a glitch.
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post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post

Well I learned something new today. I haven't used my Ceton InfiniTV pci in awhile and I checked Cones comment about sharing the tuners. It is possible to "share" an internal tuner. So you could do all internal tuners if you wanted or use a combination of internal and network tuners. If you do a network tuner like the HD Homerun or InfiniTV 5 eth then you would just plug them directly into your network at a switch or any ethernet jack. Shouldn't be any problems from putting it downstream from an amplifier. There are some coaxial filters than can be added if you start getting noise problems and channels not showing. Your router should be fine as long as there are wired connections everywhere. Using a network tuner over wireless is possible but sometimes problematic. I have a wireless N connection and it can slow things up from time to time.


Yes your are right on the money on this. Those are the requirements for whatever PCs connect to the network tuner. I don't have any problems recording with my Zotac HD-11's and they have a Intel Atom D510 1.66 ghz Dual Core.
If your Cat5e connections are done well then I wouldn't bother pulling it and running cat6. It will be awhile before we start to see 10Gbps transfers and equipment in home networks. If you were starting from stretch then yea go ahead and run cat6 but if you have existing cat5e that are well terminated then don't bother.
Correct on all counts for this. I will add though that I don't have any issues with playback of copy once material to multiple machines. I shouldn't be able to do that but I can. Only thing I can think of is because of my WHS2011 and its connector software all the recordings go to and stay on the WHS box. When I watch from another machine all I am really doing is streaming it from the WHS box which is technically a DLNA server.

Ceton offers their solution with the Echo extenders. The content stays on the recording machine and you are just streaming it to the Echos. I've got an Echo in my closet and I really don't like the thing. It was always buggy and had massive delays between me telling it to do something and it actually doing it. Most of my friends have ditched them as well. Windows 8 does not support them currently (there are work arounds though)

All this said now. For bigRod it comes down to making a decision on small HTPC's or giving extenders a try. If you want to record and share premium content then the extenders are one way to go or you can go the network "shared" tuner route and let everyone record and store their premium content at specific TVs with small HTPCs. Most of your content should not be copy once. It does vary from cable company to cable company somewhat and usually only premium content is copy once. I did have a Fox channel that was copy once for some reason but that was probably a glitch.


Thanks Cones and Kylepdalton for your help. I believe I have a clear picture of the task at hand. I am thinking to try to imitate your system since it does work well. I was looking back at post # 6 and you said you use a Media Capture PC: this would be your main HTPC that you use to process media and then send it to the Media server that you store all your media. This media server is running WHS2011. This media server goes connected to your router or switch. I like the idea of processing your media by being able to remove commercials. What a great idea .

Then for each tv I want to connect I need a Media Reciever PCs , Zotac HD-11's. So I will need three of these.
I can use the Ceton infinit4 on my main HTPC and then the HD Homerun Prime 3x2 connected to my router or switch. I think I have it. I have never built a server before but I think I can do it. I am pretty sure I can build the main HTPC with not to much trouble. I will use Windows 8 pro with media center.
AS for the wiring, I ran most of the cat5e wiring in 2000 and it was my first time doing the punchdown . I think I will put in new wiring just to be safe. Spent many of days up in the attic running wiring and installing Home theatre so its not to bad except for the heat.
If I have anything wrong please let me know.

To be honest, I never knew that a HTPC setup can do so much like editing out commercials etc.. did a search on PlayOn server, PlayLater service, and have not found any info on this. Do you know where I can find info on this software? What is the advaNTAge of using the Intel PRO/1000 MT Dual Port Server Adapter Network on your main HTPC??

Very cool!!

Thanks for all the help, greatly appreciated.smile.gif
Edited by bigRod - 6/15/13 at 9:50pm
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigRod View Post

Thanks Cones and Kylepdalton for your help. I believe I have a clear picture of the task at hand. I am thinking to try to imitate your system since it does work well. I was looking back at post # 6 and you said you use a Media Capture PC: this would be your main HTPC that you use to process media and then send it to the Media server that you store all your media. This media server is running WHS2011. This media server goes connected to your router or switch. I like the idea of processing your media by being able to remove commercials. What a great idea .

Then for each tv I want to connect I need a Media Reciever PCs , Zotac HD-11's. So I will need three of these.
I can use the Ceton infinit4 on my main HTPC and then the HD Homerun Prime 3x2 connected to my router or switch. I think I have it. I have never built a server before but I think I can do it. I am pretty sure I can build the main HTPC with not to much trouble. I will use Windows 8 pro with media center.
AS for the wiring, I ran most of the cat5e wiring in 2000 and it was my first time doing the punchdown . I think I will put in new wiring just to be safe. Spent many of days up in the attic running wiring and installing Home theatre so its not to bad except for the heat.
If I have anything wrong please let me know.

To be honest, I never knew that a HTPC setup can do so much like editing out commercials etc.. did a search on PlayOn server, PlayLater service, and have not found any info on this. Do you know where I can find info on this software? What is the advaNTAge of using the Intel PRO/1000 MT Dual Port Server Adapter Network on your main HTPC??

Very cool!!

Thanks for all the help, greatly appreciated.smile.gif

Haha the more you start looking at this stuff the more you will find you can do. Your plan sounds good to me. I'm sure there are better small pc's than the HD-11's out now. Look at the AMD APU lineups. You've got my setup pretty much nailed down. I have the main HTPC that does the bulk of the recording and processing. Then I have my WHS2011 box connected to my network and it distributes the media everywhere else.

Running W8 Pro is actually nice on a big screen TV but you'll have to go through the work arounds to use network tuners with W8. Depending on the brand of tuner you choose the work arounds are different.

As for your wiring you have more will than I would to redo them. I will list a couple of websites down at the bottom of this post that you may find helpful. As far as the dual port NICs I have a lot traffic going into and out of my servers (I have 2 others) so I use link aggregation to give myself more bandwidth. I can saturate a single GigE link. When it comes to media you wouldn't normally see that kind of traffic so a single GigE link is all that you would need.

WHS2011 Information: www.wegotserved.com They have a lot of information about WHS setups, TV setups, networking, storage, and really a little bit of everything.

Windows Media Center Stuff:

Customization: www.hack7mc.com Good tutorials and general how-to's for WMC. Not all of the WMC works with both W8 and W7 setups. A lot you would just have to try with W8.

Commerical Scrubbing and Media Conversions: http://mcebuddy2x.codeplex.com/ I can confirm most of this works with W8's WMC.

TV Tuner Options:

Pure Cable Card Network Tuners
InfiniTV 6 eth: http://cetoncorp.com/products/infinitv-6-ethernet/
HD Homerun Prime: http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun/prime/
Hauppauge WinTV-3250: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_dcr3250.html

Internal Cable Card Tuners:
Ceton InfiniTV 6 PCI: http://cetoncorp.com/products/infinitv-6-pcie/
Ceton InfiniTV 4 PCI: http://cetoncorp.com/products/infinitv-4-pcie/

If you can't find the info you need here then head over the AVS Forums. http://www.avsforum.com/f/26/home-theater-computers
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post #15 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post

Haha the more you start looking at this stuff the more you will find you can do. Your plan sounds good to me. I'm sure there are better small pc's than the HD-11's out now. Look at the AMD APU lineups. You've got my setup pretty much nailed down. I have the main HTPC that does the bulk of the recording and processing. Then I have my WHS2011 box connected to my network and it distributes the media everywhere else.

Running W8 Pro is actually nice on a big screen TV but you'll have to go through the work arounds to use network tuners with W8. Depending on the brand of tuner you choose the work arounds are different.

As for your wiring you have more will than I would to redo them. I will list a couple of websites down at the bottom of this post that you may find helpful. As far as the dual port NICs I have a lot traffic going into and out of my servers (I have 2 others) so I use link aggregation to give myself more bandwidth. I can saturate a single GigE link. When it comes to media you wouldn't normally see that kind of traffic so a single GigE link is all that you would need.

WHS2011 Information: www.wegotserved.com They have a lot of information about WHS setups, TV setups, networking, storage, and really a little bit of everything.

Windows Media Center Stuff:

Customization: www.hack7mc.com Good tutorials and general how-to's for WMC. Not all of the WMC works with both W8 and W7 setups. A lot you would just have to try with W8.

Commerical Scrubbing and Media Conversions: http://mcebuddy2x.codeplex.com/ I can confirm most of this works with W8's WMC.

TV Tuner Options:

Pure Cable Card Network Tuners
InfiniTV 6 eth: http://cetoncorp.com/products/infinitv-6-ethernet/
HD Homerun Prime: http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun/prime/
Hauppauge WinTV-3250: http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_dcr3250.html

Internal Cable Card Tuners:
Ceton InfiniTV 6 PCI: http://cetoncorp.com/products/infinitv-6-pcie/
Ceton InfiniTV 4 PCI: http://cetoncorp.com/products/infinitv-4-pcie/

If you can't find the info you need here then head over the AVS Forums. http://www.avsforum.com/f/26/home-theater-computers

Wow, can't thank you enough Kylepdalton . Great info. I will methodically start looking at all the links you have provided to better educate myself before beginning. I was wondering what HTPC case you recommend and also what case you recommend for the server?
I will start with the wiring, cat6a is a bit expensive. Besides I just finished building a gaming computer, the one on the bottom of my post , and that was an expensive build because I got carried away, happens a lot , lol....Progress will be slow but that is fine , less chance of making a big mistake.
I noticed you use AMD processors and GPU, Amd 955 3.8 Ghz, 8 GB of ram, HD6850 for your media capture PC and an AMD dual core 3850e for the media server, I assume this has onboard graphics capability? I'm sorry not to versed in using AMD but I think it might be time to try. I don't know how long ago you built your HTPC system but if you had to do it today are there any upgrades you would do, can it be done with intel processors and GPU's??
In reference to the WHS 2011 i am a little worried as how big this computer is going to be for lack of a good area to put it. What are the benefits of using WHS2011 as apposed to a NAS??
I am sorry for all the questions but this will be the last ones. Thanks for all your guidance.
Edited by bigRod - 6/16/13 at 9:20am
post #16 of 18
The problem with using HTPCs on the other TVs is how to watch recorded premium content with the "copy once" flag. Another thing to keep in mind (which likely is not a problem for you but worth mentioning) is that your HTPC MUST be hooked up via HDMI or DVI to your TV. VGA and Display Port will not work.
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post #17 of 18
I forgot to post these last time.

PlayOn: http://www.playon.tv/playon

PlayLater: http://www.playlater.tv/

For the most part my media server and recording box are just machines and parts I have retired. My media server is probably close to 6 years old, and the media capture is probably 3 years old. The only reason really my media capture pc is as powerful as it, is because I game on it from time to time. The server has onboard video but I haven't connected it to a monitor since I installed WHS2011, its really just headless and sits in a corner of my office. (I am in the process of moving nearly everything of mine into a server rack. I have close to 10 machines or so.)

As for the advantages of WHS2011 over NAS. Well there are quite a few really but none are necessary for media storage. It just makes life easier. I can say that my copy once premium recordings were playable on multiple machines when I was using the cable card setups. (I've since dropped paying for any cable whatsoever an just watch clear QAM stuff and online content.) The copy once flag still remained if I didn't re-encode it before it was moved to the WHS2011 with the built in WHS Connector software.

Now I can not confirm if that was just a fluke that it was working like or if something in my moving, transcoding, commercial stripping, meta-data updating, etc... happened to remove the flag. Entirely possible I suppose but something that happened unintentionally. Perhaps the WHS Connector software flagged the content as playable only from the WHS through another machine. The WHS box is a certified DLNA server device so that is possible.

There are ways to remove the copy once flag but I'll leave that to others to research as I haven't bothered with it much. If you go with a NAS solution then there are a couple things you will have to set up to move the files around and then share them again.

Any hardware should be able to handle this kind of stuff. If you doing any transcoding or similar then a more powerful machine is nice to have. The server or NAS should be a low power as possible as you will leave it on 24/7. Mine barely pulls more than 100w from the wall. The biggest expense here will be hard drives. I have several Tb's of just media. There are other members with 40+ Tb of media.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffwx7 View Post

The problem with using HTPCs on the other TVs is how to watch recorded premium content with the "copy once" flag. Another thing to keep in mind (which likely is not a problem for you but worth mentioning) is that your HTPC MUST be hooked up via HDMI or DVI to your TV. VGA and Display Port will not work.

These are very good points. Supposedly since displayport 1.1 is now HDCP compliant Microsoft is trying to add a fix into the W8 WMC for it to work. I have found no plans for them to do it for W7 though. Too few displayport only TVs and monitors for it to really be an issue. (I happen to own a monitor with displayport only and it can be a pain with things.)

I have to say that my setup is over the top for most people. I live by myself and have all this going on but I had the stuff to begin with and thought why not. My friends get a kick out of coming over and being able to find just about anything they can think of to watch or listen to. Start with a single PC and cable card tuner. If you find you like it then start building up from there. At the end of the day some people just don't care for it. They end up buying a couple of TiVos and move on.
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post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylepdalton View Post

I forgot to post these last time.

PlayOn: http://www.playon.tv/playon

PlayLater: http://www.playlater.tv/

For the most part my media server and recording box are just machines and parts I have retired. My media server is probably close to 6 years old, and the media capture is probably 3 years old. The only reason really my media capture pc is as powerful as it, is because I game on it from time to time. The server has onboard video but I haven't connected it to a monitor since I installed WHS2011, its really just headless and sits in a corner of my office. (I am in the process of moving nearly everything of mine into a server rack. I have close to 10 machines or so.)

As for the advantages of WHS2011 over NAS. Well there are quite a few really but none are necessary for media storage. It just makes life easier. I can say that my copy once premium recordings were playable on multiple machines when I was using the cable card setups. (I've since dropped paying for any cable whatsoever an just watch clear QAM stuff and online content.) The copy once flag still remained if I didn't re-encode it before it was moved to the WHS2011 with the built in WHS Connector software.

Now I can not confirm if that was just a fluke that it was working like or if something in my moving, transcoding, commercial stripping, meta-data updating, etc... happened to remove the flag. Entirely possible I suppose but something that happened unintentionally. Perhaps the WHS Connector software flagged the content as playable only from the WHS through another machine. The WHS box is a certified DLNA server device so that is possible.

There are ways to remove the copy once flag but I'll leave that to others to research as I haven't bothered with it much. If you go with a NAS solution then there are a couple things you will have to set up to move the files around and then share them again.

Any hardware should be able to handle this kind of stuff. If you doing any transcoding or similar then a more powerful machine is nice to have. The server or NAS should be a low power as possible as you will leave it on 24/7. Mine barely pulls more than 100w from the wall. The biggest expense here will be hard drives. I have several Tb's of just media. There are other members with 40+ Tb of media.
These are very good points. Supposedly since displayport 1.1 is now HDCP compliant Microsoft is trying to add a fix into the W8 WMC for it to work. I have found no plans for them to do it for W7 though. Too few displayport only TVs and monitors for it to really be an issue. (I happen to own a monitor with displayport only and it can be a pain with things.)

I have to say that my setup is over the top for most people. I live by myself and have all this going on but I had the stuff to begin with and thought why not. My friends get a kick out of coming over and being able to find just about anything they can think of to watch or listen to. Start with a single PC and cable card tuner. If you find you like it then start building up from there. At the end of the day some people just don't care for it. They end up buying a couple of TiVos and move on.

Thanks Jeffwx7 and Kylepdalton for your help.

@Jeffwx7
Yes the copy once issue is definitely an important one. Especially in my case since my goal is eventually to get rid of all my cable boxes it has to be able to record and view content from each TV. If I don't plan it correctly my family will have a hard time with it and they will not use it.I have to try to make it easy and it has to work similar to a Cable PVR. I will do some reading on this before purchasing anything to make sure it will work for me. Appreciate your input.


@Kylepdalton,
Appreciate you taking to time to explain all of this. You have given me some great advice on this project. I will start slowly and get the wiring done first. I will then build the Main HTPC, Video capture PC. Get that up and running with my main LCD in the family room. Once that is done then I will setup the WHS 2011 server. When I have that working well with the Media capture PC then I will start branching out to other TV's around the house. I think this will be my best course of action. any other ideas please let me know.smile.gif
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