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[Fudzilla] Intel plans Haswell "refresh" in Q2 2014 - Page 3

post #21 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syan48306 View Post

I hear you, but even if they are focusing their fight with ARM SOC's, if AMD came out with something that wins in IPC AND Core count, Intel will have to refocus on both fronts. They're not going to just hand over the desktop market to AMD.

That's true I guess. It would be pretty great if AMD produced something akin to their old athlon x64 - it's been many, many years since AMD has been in that position.
post #22 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syan48306 View Post

They're focusing on the mobile sector because they're not feeling the pressure from AMD in the desktop market. That is what it really boils down to. Imagine, just hypothetically, if Steamroller comes out and spanks Haswell-E, Intel will probably double down and refocus on regaining the desktop market.

AMD is a non factor to intel, IMHO. Their real competitors for the time being are ARM SOC manufacturers. If you read the reddit AMA with an intel engineer, he states that AMD is not a competitor to intel at this time, at least not a relevant one - their primary competitors are samsung, apple, qualcomm, and nvidia. Intel does not care about what AMD does on the desktop.

Also look at what AMD is doing. They're going after the VERY SAME thing - mobility and efficiency; they're trying to capture part of the mobile market with their lower power APUs - They're just doing a far worse job than intel is. Nothing AMD has in terms of mobile products can hold a candle to the 12-14 hour battery life of ULV Haswell.

This, Intel is more than willing to give up the desktop market. It's very clear they don't care about enthusiasts, from killing off cheap overclocking on low end chips, to removing features on the overclocking versions of chips, to artificially locking clock straps on chips that could use it, they simply don't care about us. LGA2011 "enthusiast platform" is currently 3 generations of tick tock behind "mainstream" and mobile. This rumor is stating that "mainstream" is going to fall behind now too if Broadwell comes out mobile/BGA only.

Also regarding the fact that they just simply don't care about AMD having the desktop market is Steamroller. Rumors of 30% better IPC means you can just take an FX 8350 review, make the benchmarks 30% better for AMD, and see where it falls. It actually puts Steamroller well ahead of 4770k in nearly all benchmarks, and that's not including clock increases.

Do you think Intel doesn't know this? Of course they do. Intel probably knows more about Steamroller than any of us on the internet. And they simply don't care, they're basically just giving up desktop to AMD at this point because they don't see growth in desktop and the desktop gaming marketing just isn't enough profit for Intel, while it is for AMD.

And yes, AMD is going for mobility and efficiency, but they're still pushing high end opterons and big x86 cores with much more performance. Other than MOAR COARS Intel isn't really doing much for x86 CPU performancee, and to be quite honest MOAR COARS should have came with Ivy Bridge given the die sizes of 3570/3770(k)s, but they didn't. Intel is doing a lot, but pretty much none of it has to do with x86 performance in traditional CPUs.
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post #23 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syan48306 View Post

They're focusing on the mobile sector because they're not feeling the pressure from AMD in the desktop market. That is what it really boils down to. Imagine, just hypothetically, if Steamroller comes out and spanks Haswell-E, Intel will probably double down and refocus on regaining the desktop market.

AMD is a non factor to intel, IMHO. Their real competitors for the time being are ARM SOC manufacturers. If you read the reddit AMA with an intel engineer, he states that AMD is not a competitor to intel at this time, at least not a relevant one - their primary competitors are samsung, apple, qualcomm, and nvidia. Intel does not care about what AMD does on the desktop.

Also look at what AMD is doing. They're going after the VERY SAME thing - mobility and efficiency; they're trying to capture part of the mobile market with their lower power APUs - They're just doing a far worse job than intel is. Nothing AMD has in terms of mobile products can hold a candle to the 12-14 hour battery life of ULV Haswell.

This, Intel is more than willing to give up the desktop market. It's very clear they don't care about enthusiasts, from killing off cheap overclocking on low end chips, to removing features on the overclocking versions of chips, to artificially locking clock straps on chips that could use it, they simply don't care about us. LGA2011 "enthusiast platform" is currently 3 generations of tick tock behind "mainstream" and mobile. This rumor is stating that "mainstream" is going to fall behind now too if Broadwell comes out mobile/BGA only.

Also regarding the fact that they just simply don't care about AMD having the desktop market is Steamroller. Rumors of 30% better IPC means you can just take an FX 8350 review, make the benchmarks 30% better for AMD, and see where it falls. It actually puts Steamroller well ahead of 4770k in nearly all benchmarks, and that's not including clock increases.

Do you think Intel doesn't know this? Of course they do. Intel probably knows more about Steamroller than any of us on the internet. And they simply don't care, they're basically just giving up desktop to AMD at this point because they don't see growth in desktop and the desktop gaming marketing just isn't enough profit for Intel, while it is for AMD.

And yes, AMD is going for mobility and efficiency, but they're still pushing high end opterons and big x86 cores with much more performance. Other than MOAR COARS Intel isn't really doing much for x86 CPU performancee, and to be quite honest MOAR COARS should have came with Ivy Bridge given the die sizes of 3570/3770(k)s, but they didn't. Intel is doing a lot, but pretty much none of it has to do with x86 performance in traditional CPUs.
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post #24 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

it means that broadwell/skylake will be the last LGA processor and broadwell will be ready on 2015

.... I find it hard to see how you come to that conclusion from this article.

Haswell is a great CPU and Haswell-E with 8 core will be amazing.
Desktop users, people who build their own desktops and go for a Haswell or a Haswell-E with so much speed in GHz and number of cores, why would you want to upgrade to a 14nm Broadwell from Haswell-E?

Broadwell will be another mile stone for Intel, with better economies of scale going down to 14nm, better on battery performance, better on TDP. All of these benefits are mainly for mobile.
I wouldn't want a Broadwell on my home made desktop if i already have Haswell or Haswell-E, however if i was buying maybe a All in One convertible or a Laptop convertible or a Ultrabook (convertible) i would want Broadwell.

I believe that the members of OCN including my self are a niche, for most of the market (mobile) BGA is better in my opinion.

On another note LGA or no LGA desktop market is not totally dead, there are new All in one machines on the market, with great specs and even all in one convertibles which is a great next evolution for desktops.
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post #25 of 28
Well, no offense sdlvx - but I think that's a slight exaggeration. Intel isn't "giving up" the market, it just isn't the priority. Intel will still service the desktop market, although in what form remains to be seen - I think that they will shift more of their products into the "E" type many core (eg 6 to 8 core) product line, and that architectures will arrive for mobile first before desktop. This is just speculation though, from what i've read. They could of course continue with things as are, we just DO NOT know yet. smile.gif

Presumably Broadwell was designed from the ground up as a mobile architecture. This will be groundbreaking for the mobility market and for the corporate / server market, however from a desktop IPC standpoint it will not be an evolution over Haswell I do not believe. Thus I could see arguments for Broadwell arriving on mobile first.

As far as streamroller goes...don't get me wrong, it would be great for AMD's streamroller to actually be a great chip; it is, however, understandable as to why many have doubts about this happening. I want AMD to prove me wrong but it's hard to generate excitement after what happened with BD.
Edited by xoleras - 6/18/13 at 11:15am
post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Well, no offense sdlvx - but I think that's a slight exaggeration. Intel isn't "giving up" the market, it just isn't the priority. Intel will still service the desktop market, although in what form remains to be seen - I think that they will shift more of their products into the "E" type many core (eg 6 to 8 core) product line, and that architectures will arrive for mobile first before desktop. This is just speculation though, from what i've read. They could of course continue with things as are, we just DO NOT know yet. smile.gif

Presumably Broadwell was designed from the ground up as a mobile architecture. This will be groundbreaking for the mobility market and for the corporate / server market, however from a desktop IPC standpoint it will not be an evolution over Haswell I do not believe. Thus I could see arguments for Broadwell arriving on mobile first.

As far as streamroller goes...don't get me wrong, it would be great for AMD's streamroller to actually be a great chip; it is, however, understandable as to why many have doubts about this happening. I want AMD to prove me wrong but it's hard to generate excitement after what happened with BD.

It makes a lot of sense for Intel to move to the CPU/MB combo. Their main market for desktop is suppliers such as Dell, HP and Apple. Take a look at Apple, They they don't employ a single 3570K or 3770K in their entire lineup. what they DO have is mobile processors in ALL of their iMac's. They've been using mobile i5's and i7's for a long time now in their iMacs. Their Mac Pro line uses Xeons. Notice how they skipped over the beloved 3570 and 3770? It only people like us who really care about our desktop i5's and i7's. If intel pushes people who build and mod their computers to their "E" line, not many other than us would complain.
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post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

Well, no offense sdlvx - but I think that's a slight exaggeration. Intel isn't "giving up" the market, it just isn't the priority. Intel will still service the desktop market, although in what form remains to be seen - I think that they will shift more of their products into the "E" type many core (eg 6 to 8 core) product line, and that architectures will arrive for mobile first before desktop. This is just speculation though, from what i've read. They could of course continue with things as are, we just DO NOT know yet. smile.gif

Presumably Broadwell was designed from the ground up as a mobile architecture. This will be groundbreaking for the mobility market and for the corporate / server market, however from a desktop IPC standpoint it will not be an evolution over Haswell I do not believe. Thus I could see arguments for Broadwell arriving on mobile first.

As far as streamroller goes...don't get me wrong, it would be great for AMD's streamroller to actually be a great chip; it is, however, understandable as to why many have doubts about this happening. I want AMD to prove me wrong but it's hard to generate excitement after what happened with BD.

I hope we see more cores but I just don't see it making sense for Intel to compete in desktop if AMD wins there. Perhaps in servers as the profit margins are significantly higher there but the desktop, for both AMD and Intel, are a whole lot of selling chips that could have been Opterons or Xeons being sold for half as much as i5s, i7s, or FXs.

But I do think AMD won't catch Intel in the server market, and that's why they're focusing on games and such.

I do agree, Broadwell will more than likely be a very good mobile chip, but that's just it, the more mobile Intel goes, the less good things we see for enthusiasts. But honestly it would be nice to see Intel just flat out drop LGA1150 for gamers and come out with an LGA2011 quad that cost the same as 4670k. I wouldn't rule that out at all, but as I said, Intel is going to make far, far more money selling Xeons, Phis, and mobile GT3 parts than they will on LGA1150 gaming chips, specially when software has been at such a stand-still (perhaps due to consoles) where people with old Intels have little incentive to upgrade.

The mobile market is a cash cow, it's a bunch of devices that can't be upgraded, need better performance and battery life, and need to be replaced every year or two unless you want it to be a facebook and OCN machine.

Contrast that with desktops where i7 920s and Phenom 2s can still do extremely well in solid gaming rigs and it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to even care about enthusiast desktop. LGA2011 is good for Intel and I don't see them not keeping it around, because it's a good place to dump Xeons that are more suited for higher clocks at higher power consumption.

I agree and BD is in the back of my mind as well, I was really excited for it, but I remain optimistic because it feels a lot like AMD's CPUs have a tendency to have large amounts of fail the first generation and then to gradually become something decent. I'm personally just kind of extrapolating from AMD's history, but I do agree, there's no reason why Steamroller can't end up as just a hotter, lower clocking, 5% better IPC chip than Piledriver, I just don't think that's likely since it's an upgraded Piledriver and AMD is good at fixing things.
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post #28 of 28
On a side note, the desktop front is just depressing now.

Ultrabooks now have SSDs 3 times faster than the fastest desktop SSDs now, while PCIE desktop SSDs remain too expensive.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Samsung-XP941-SSD-Ultrabook-PCIe,23107.html
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