Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Hard Drives & Storage › SSD › SSD for caching crucial/intel --- mSATA vs SATA3 ?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

SSD for caching crucial/intel --- mSATA vs SATA3 ? - Page 4

post #31 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranerX3 View Post

why did a manufacture like GB put a mSATA port on one of its top boards (G1 sniper3) if its so much worse hen SATA3 ?

Frankly, I don't really see much sense for it in gigantic motherboards which will be going inside equally gigantic cases. On Mini-ITX builds, though, it saves space and makes for cleaner wiring. For Mini-ITX boards with built-in power supplies, pretty much the only wires you need to connect are for the front panel ports. As for being worse than SATA3, keep in mind that the thing it really limits is sequential performance. For running an OS or for use as a cache drive, what you're after is fast small block and random performance which SATA2 is still able deliver.

This makes for good reading: Tom's Hardware: Is A SATA 3Gb/s Platform Still Worth Upgrading With An SSD?

And the graphs that show you real-world difference between SATA2 & SATA3:

Windows 8 Startup Windows 8 Shutdown Application Startup

There's really nothing inherently wrong with SATA2 or mSATA. In your case, they just didn't happen to be practical options. If someone found a deal for, say, a used Samsung PM830 128GB mSATA for $50 on ebay and was still using an HDD for OS drive, even if the mSATA slot on the motherboard is SATA2, the PM830 would have made for a good upgrade (either for use as OS drive or cache).
Garnet
(11 items)
 
Lucifiel
(13 items)
 
Metatron
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5-3450S Intel DQ77KB Corsair 16GB DDR3 1600 SO-DIMM Samsung 830 256GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Crucial m4 256 mSATA Samsung 840 500GB Intel BXHTS1155LP Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
KeyboardCaseMouse
Logitech K800 Lian Li PC-Q05B Logitech M570 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Gigabyte GA-H55N-USB3 EVGA GTX 460 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x4GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Silverstone ST45SF 450W Silverstone Sugo SG05B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Biostar TH55B HD MSI GT 240 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x2GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Intel X25-M 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x86 Samsung 22" Antec EA-380D 
Case
Rosewill R101-P-BK 
  hide details  
Reply
Garnet
(11 items)
 
Lucifiel
(13 items)
 
Metatron
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5-3450S Intel DQ77KB Corsair 16GB DDR3 1600 SO-DIMM Samsung 830 256GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Crucial m4 256 mSATA Samsung 840 500GB Intel BXHTS1155LP Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
KeyboardCaseMouse
Logitech K800 Lian Li PC-Q05B Logitech M570 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Gigabyte GA-H55N-USB3 EVGA GTX 460 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x4GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Silverstone ST45SF 450W Silverstone Sugo SG05B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Biostar TH55B HD MSI GT 240 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x2GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Intel X25-M 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x86 Samsung 22" Antec EA-380D 
Case
Rosewill R101-P-BK 
  hide details  
Reply
post #32 of 35
The decision to go with a 240-256GB SSD is a very wise one. You will not regret it and it is plenty large enough to have much less worries.

While the OS wastes a TON of space it becomes less relevant the larger the drive you have.

I only think that caching is the way to go for smaller SSDs, tight budgets, and people who are very computer illiterate oh and also multi-user PCs (in some situations).

Just make sure that as soon as you install Windows that you C:\USERS\"username" right click on all the folders that have icons over the top of them go to properties and then the location tab and MOVE the folder to a folder on the actual HDD.

It will make it easier to make sure you don't accidently put junk or media on the SSD.
Silence
(20 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel i7-5820k  ASRock x99 extreme 4 AMD R9 290X AMD R9 290X 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
ballistix ddr4 dual channel Samsung 850 EVO 500GB DT 5noz CPU Waterblock XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 4x120 Black Ice Xtreme GTX480 Swiftech MCP655 Danger Den Monsoon Pump/Reservoir 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Corsair Link Fan Controller Windows 8.1 Nixeus 2560x1440 Logitech G15 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Kingwin PF-850 Ttesports Level10M Razer Vespula Sennheiser HD590 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5-2500k gigabyte z68xp-ud4 Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming DDR3 1600 4x2GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB w/ Intel RST... Corsair H100 Windows 8.1 1920x1200 HP 
Power
PC P+C 1000w 
  hide details  
Reply
Silence
(20 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel i7-5820k  ASRock x99 extreme 4 AMD R9 290X AMD R9 290X 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
ballistix ddr4 dual channel Samsung 850 EVO 500GB DT 5noz CPU Waterblock XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 4x120 Black Ice Xtreme GTX480 Swiftech MCP655 Danger Den Monsoon Pump/Reservoir 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Corsair Link Fan Controller Windows 8.1 Nixeus 2560x1440 Logitech G15 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Kingwin PF-850 Ttesports Level10M Razer Vespula Sennheiser HD590 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5-2500k gigabyte z68xp-ud4 Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming DDR3 1600 4x2GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB w/ Intel RST... Corsair H100 Windows 8.1 1920x1200 HP 
Power
PC P+C 1000w 
  hide details  
Reply
post #33 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by rui-no-onna View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by givmedew View Post

I meant they are not using all the channels that they can... as in completely wasting what is available to them. So much that like I said 2 mSata drives with the same basic specs (size, sata bus speed, and memory type) are performing significantly different from one another because one will have half of what the other has. You said NAND chips so I am guessing that what I am talking about is that one of those may have 1 and the other may have 2 and the difference is night and day but the consumer does not know it.

Name me one mSATA model of the same capacity from the same manufacturer that comes in different NAND/channel configurations. Really, the primary differentiating factor when it comes to performance among mSATA drives is the controller (and that's pretty much the same case with 2.5" SSDs). NAND/channel configuration is second and again, it's the same thing we experience with 2.5" SSDs. Higher capacity SSDs generally perform better than lower capacity models.


.

I can name 2 but there are more...

OCZ Noctie and Intel 310 (I think it was the 310).

Either way compare them to some other drives offered at the same time with similar capacities and what do you know... Major speed differences.

It is obvious you know more about the technology behind this stuff than I do... and although I wasn't sure why it was that those drives had major performance difference I did a little searching and I think it is that they where using TSOP chips instead of BGA the TSOP chips couldn't use as many NAND channels. From my understanding HALF of the controllers available channels. So it had nothing to do with the controller... Since the controllers actual max performance was much higher than the drives total performance and other drives with the same controller where doing just fine.

So while I will admit that you know a ton more than me about the inner workings of an SSD you are a little arrogant at the same time. It wasn't the controller that was the issue it was the memory chip (I think) but I know it wasn't the actual controller.

Either way when these drives started getting popular there where drives being made that could utilize all the channels (or more of them) and drives that could not. It was not because of the amount of storage so what consumers thought where similar drives (that even had the same controller) they where getting significantly different performance.

I did not know the root cause and it may be that all new drives are BGA and can use up more channels. Again you would know more about the specifics...

Also there are still drives with TSOP memory floating around for sale... so it is still a relevant point.


It is not my job to explain the engineering side of things to potential clients it only my job to make recommendations and to know what to stay away from to know what is hocus pocus and what is the real deal. I don't need to know the exact specifics behind it but I do usually read the exact specifics to make sure the explanation is credible. I don't always understand all of and don't remember it.

Sounds like you do remember that stuff and understand it or you have a much more technical involvement and understanding in computers or at least storage. You just where not aware of the issue that was happening is all... Does mean I know more than you (I know I don't) it just means that I encountered this issue and had to research in order to explain why it was happening and how to keep it from happening again.

So please don't think that I challenged you in some way.
Edited by givmedew - 6/27/13 at 8:49pm
Silence
(20 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel i7-5820k  ASRock x99 extreme 4 AMD R9 290X AMD R9 290X 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
ballistix ddr4 dual channel Samsung 850 EVO 500GB DT 5noz CPU Waterblock XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 4x120 Black Ice Xtreme GTX480 Swiftech MCP655 Danger Den Monsoon Pump/Reservoir 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Corsair Link Fan Controller Windows 8.1 Nixeus 2560x1440 Logitech G15 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Kingwin PF-850 Ttesports Level10M Razer Vespula Sennheiser HD590 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5-2500k gigabyte z68xp-ud4 Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming DDR3 1600 4x2GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB w/ Intel RST... Corsair H100 Windows 8.1 1920x1200 HP 
Power
PC P+C 1000w 
  hide details  
Reply
Silence
(20 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel i7-5820k  ASRock x99 extreme 4 AMD R9 290X AMD R9 290X 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
ballistix ddr4 dual channel Samsung 850 EVO 500GB DT 5noz CPU Waterblock XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 4x120 Black Ice Xtreme GTX480 Swiftech MCP655 Danger Den Monsoon Pump/Reservoir 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Corsair Link Fan Controller Windows 8.1 Nixeus 2560x1440 Logitech G15 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Kingwin PF-850 Ttesports Level10M Razer Vespula Sennheiser HD590 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5-2500k gigabyte z68xp-ud4 Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming DDR3 1600 4x2GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB w/ Intel RST... Corsair H100 Windows 8.1 1920x1200 HP 
Power
PC P+C 1000w 
  hide details  
Reply
post #34 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by givmedew View Post

OCZ Noctie and Intel 310 (I think it was the 310).

Either way compare them to some other drives offered at the same time with similar capacities and what do you know... Major speed differences.

So while I will admit that you know a ton more than me about the inner workings of an SSD you are a little arrogant at the same time. It wasn't the controller that was the issue it was the memory chip (I think) but I know it wasn't the actual controller.

I meant give me an example of an SSD from the exact same model and exact same capacity that uses different NAND configuration, not SSDs of comparable capacities. My point is as long as you're familiar with what mSATA models are good and which models to steer clear of, you should be fine.

The Intel 310 uses what is essentially a 2-3 year old controller so performance obviously won't be comparable with the Samsung 830s and Crucial m4s being released around the same time. From memory, Intel 310 performs as expected (almost on par with the Intel X25-M). I reckon it's physically impossible for the Intel 310 (and other mSATA drives for that matter) to populate all channels given its diminutive size so the fact that it's nipping right behind the X25-M's heels is already pretty impressive given it's using just 5 out of the 10 channels.

The OCZ Nocti uses a gimped SF-2000 controller (limited to SATA II) and asynchronous ONFi NAND so it's not exactly a stellar performer to begin with. Hmm, I do wonder how it compares against the OCZ Agility 3 which is its closest "comparable".

The Crucial m4, Intel 520, Plextor M5S (and I reckon most other SSDs using 25-50nm Intel/Micron MLC NAND) use TSOP and they're not exactly slouches. Keep in mind typical NAND performance hierarchy: Toggle-Mode DDR MLC > Synchronous ONFi MLC > Asynchronous ONFi MLC

No idea where Toggle-Mode DDR TLC (e.g. Samsung 840) falls on the above hierarchy as far as pure NAND flash performance is concerned.

Intel/Micron (ONFi) only started using BGA recently with their 20nm NAND, I believe. I think Toshiba/SanDisk and Samsung (Toggle) have been using BGA for a while. Given there are quite a number of differences between Toggle-Mode and ONFi NAND aside from packaging, I don't think it's possible to make a definitive declaration that the reason for the performance difference is because one is TSOP and the other is BGA.
Garnet
(11 items)
 
Lucifiel
(13 items)
 
Metatron
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5-3450S Intel DQ77KB Corsair 16GB DDR3 1600 SO-DIMM Samsung 830 256GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Crucial m4 256 mSATA Samsung 840 500GB Intel BXHTS1155LP Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
KeyboardCaseMouse
Logitech K800 Lian Li PC-Q05B Logitech M570 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Gigabyte GA-H55N-USB3 EVGA GTX 460 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x4GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Silverstone ST45SF 450W Silverstone Sugo SG05B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Biostar TH55B HD MSI GT 240 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x2GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Intel X25-M 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x86 Samsung 22" Antec EA-380D 
Case
Rosewill R101-P-BK 
  hide details  
Reply
Garnet
(11 items)
 
Lucifiel
(13 items)
 
Metatron
(13 items)
 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i5-3450S Intel DQ77KB Corsair 16GB DDR3 1600 SO-DIMM Samsung 830 256GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Crucial m4 256 mSATA Samsung 840 500GB Intel BXHTS1155LP Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
KeyboardCaseMouse
Logitech K800 Lian Li PC-Q05B Logitech M570 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Gigabyte GA-H55N-USB3 EVGA GTX 460 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x4GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
G.SKILL Phoenix Pro 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x64 Silverstone ST45SF 450W Silverstone Sugo SG05B 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i7-860 Biostar TH55B HD MSI GT 240 1GB GDDR5 Kingston 2x2GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
Intel X25-M 120GB Windows 7 Ultimate x86 Samsung 22" Antec EA-380D 
Case
Rosewill R101-P-BK 
  hide details  
Reply
post #35 of 35
Well I buy your explanation...

But some of that is above my head (most of it)...

+rep for you...

Sorry to the OP for filling your thread with semi off topic information smile.gif
Silence
(20 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel i7-5820k  ASRock x99 extreme 4 AMD R9 290X AMD R9 290X 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
ballistix ddr4 dual channel Samsung 850 EVO 500GB DT 5noz CPU Waterblock XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 4x120 Black Ice Xtreme GTX480 Swiftech MCP655 Danger Den Monsoon Pump/Reservoir 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Corsair Link Fan Controller Windows 8.1 Nixeus 2560x1440 Logitech G15 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Kingwin PF-850 Ttesports Level10M Razer Vespula Sennheiser HD590 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5-2500k gigabyte z68xp-ud4 Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming DDR3 1600 4x2GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB w/ Intel RST... Corsair H100 Windows 8.1 1920x1200 HP 
Power
PC P+C 1000w 
  hide details  
Reply
Silence
(20 items)
 
Secondary Rig
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel i7-5820k  ASRock x99 extreme 4 AMD R9 290X AMD R9 290X 
RAMHard DriveCoolingCooling
ballistix ddr4 dual channel Samsung 850 EVO 500GB DT 5noz CPU Waterblock XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XSPC Razor Full Cover GPU Block 4x120 Black Ice Xtreme GTX480 Swiftech MCP655 Danger Den Monsoon Pump/Reservoir 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Corsair Link Fan Controller Windows 8.1 Nixeus 2560x1440 Logitech G15 
PowerMouseMouse PadAudio
Kingwin PF-850 Ttesports Level10M Razer Vespula Sennheiser HD590 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5-2500k gigabyte z68xp-ud4 Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming DDR3 1600 4x2GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Velociraptor 300GB w/ Intel RST... Corsair H100 Windows 8.1 1920x1200 HP 
Power
PC P+C 1000w 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: SSD
Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Hard Drives & Storage › SSD › SSD for caching crucial/intel --- mSATA vs SATA3 ?