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post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 
I doubt it. Benchmarks target big enough chucks that go above caching.

Of course, those claiming it might just be wrong.
Edited by fateswarm - 6/24/13 at 2:50pm
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post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

I doubt it. Benchmarks target big enough chucks that go above caching.

Of course, those claiming it might just be wrong.
Sure, but when you run out of cache, a complete block is brought into the cache and ideally the CPU doesn't have to access the memory until the whole block is read. The cache is never out of the picture unless you deliberately (or stupidly) program it to not use the cache. (Perhaps memory stress testing and memory benchmarking apps) Modern. compilers must be doing work to keep the cache hit ratio at a favorable level.

That's why we see, I believe, large differences in memory benchmarks such as AIDA or SANDRA, but hardly anything like that in typical benchmarks or work we do.

But we don't know if this is the "real" reason. Hopefully someone educated might fill in?
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
I mean they often just do large copies and large reads. I doubt caching does much there. It's 'read this', 'put it there'. If the 'read this' is slow (or the 'write it there') CPU can do nothing. It won't generate the information read or written out of thin air.

Unless some CPUs are stupendously smart and they read patterns, pre-reading or pre-writing. But I seriously doubt it, since those programs probably generate data with a rand().

Unless they predict from the static seeding. Nah, too extreme.

Hrm. The OS might fool the process but again proper randomization should avoid it.
Edited by fateswarm - 6/25/13 at 1:51am
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post #14 of 18
Those are the synthetic RAM benchmarks. And you do see a noticeable performance difference with faster RAM in those tests.

But in typical benchmarks and applications, you don't see much of a difference. In those tests and applications, cache must be playing a big role, hence we don't see a noticeable difference.

This just proves my theory is accurate.
post #15 of 18
Thread Starter 
Well, if you get to gaming it's clear what's going on the past few years. 3D programmers send the most they can to the GPU before even rendering a scene. They even do most of the math on them lately with shaders.

They call them "shaders". They are whole programs.

i.e. I doubt they need much RAM switching for a lot of the time.

And it's funny that some people think a faster Disk will make it faster. Yeah right, RAM can't sometimes.
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post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

What I don't get is that while that independence exists, why do people claim faster RAM won't affect much performance after Sandy Bridge. I don't get it. I don't claim it's wrong. I just don't see the reason this occurs.

Are the chipset routes the bottleneck or something?

It has always been the same, people just catch on to things at different times.

If you read Intel CPU specs, max memory speed is DDR3-1333/DDR3-1600. What does this mean? Intel only designs for DDR3-1600 max. Bandwidth/throughput is limited, unless it is tweaked otherwise. How do we make a computer faster ? OC! OC what? everything frequency possible. The ones that affect RAM are CPU, QPI, NB, and so forth. So if you compare stock CPU with DDR3-1600 to DDR3-2400, of course there is not much difference. The stock CPU is designed for DDR3-1600. Once you OC CPU and NB, then you will notice a significant difference.

With AMD, many people did not fully take advantage of DDR3-1600 and higher speed RAM either. e.g. Phenom II was designed for DDR3-1333, for DDR3-1600, you must OC CPU-NB as well to utilize the performance and improve bandwidth. Otherwise, there was not much difference between DDR3-1333 and DDR3-1600+.

As far as "real world performance" many people like to talk about, what is your real world? If you play solitaire and look at some websites, a Pentium 4 computer can do that very fast! If you do 3D or video editing and need great bandwidth to transfer large files, i7-3960X and such CPUs rule your world. With DDR3-2400 and basic CPU OC, it is a dream for professionals. Professionals will never use DDR3-1600 again if they know about performance overclocking.

Most people and their "real world" can not benefit from extreme RAM, so from their perspective it's easy to see there is no benefit. Fact is, there is no way companies like G.Skill can sell DDR3-3000 8GB for $1,000+ if it does not improve a computer at all. Why do they offer it? Rip people off blatantly? I don't think so for such respectable OC company.

Sorry for long essay, but just providing knowledge so people can hopefully understand things with one reading.

Cheers
post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timisyourfriend View Post

It has always been the same, people just catch on to things at different times.

If you read Intel CPU specs, max memory speed is DDR3-1333/DDR3-1600. What does this mean? Intel only designs for DDR3-1600 max. Bandwidth/throughput is limited, unless it is tweaked otherwise. How do we make a computer faster ? OC! OC what? everything frequency possible. The ones that affect RAM are CPU, QPI, NB, and so forth. So if you compare stock CPU with DDR3-1600 to DDR3-2400, of course there is not much difference. The stock CPU is designed for DDR3-1600. Once you OC CPU and NB, then you will notice a significant difference.

With AMD, many people did not fully take advantage of DDR3-1600 and higher speed RAM either. e.g. Phenom II was designed for DDR3-1333, for DDR3-1600, you must OC CPU-NB as well to utilize the performance and improve bandwidth. Otherwise, there was not much difference between DDR3-1333 and DDR3-1600+.

As far as "real world performance" many people like to talk about, what is your real world? If you play solitaire and look at some websites, a Pentium 4 computer can do that very fast! If you do 3D or video editing and need great bandwidth to transfer large files, i7-3960X and such CPUs rule your world. With DDR3-2400 and basic CPU OC, it is a dream for professionals. Professionals will never use DDR3-1600 again if they know about performance overclocking.

Most people and their "real world" can not benefit from extreme RAM, so from their perspective it's easy to see there is no benefit. Fact is, there is no way companies like G.Skill can sell DDR3-3000 8GB for $1,000+ if it does not improve a computer at all. Why do they offer it? Rip people off blatantly? I don't think so for such respectable OC company.

Sorry for long essay, but just providing knowledge so people can hopefully understand things with one reading.

Cheers
Concerning the scenario we do heavy stuff (even if it's rare), what are the numbers? i.e. If a 3.5Ghz CPU needs 1600, how much can RAM be to benefit from 4Ghz?

Do we go just linearly? And is that AMD problem you mentioned related to modern Intel CPUs?
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post #18 of 18
Only through benchmark testing will you know exact numbers. Even then, it varies with each time you test, so consequently you would need to run a certain amount of times to find the average.

DDR3-1600 is fine for any CPU frequency; to take advantage of high speed RAM, frequency overclocking is necessary to increase throughput.

Each CPU design is different. Especially between each generation, it can be much different. The AMD 'problem' is just a characteristic of that particular series. It's not necessarily a problem per say, for one that is overclocking or an enthusiast, they should know these details and read this type of information before attempting.

AMD CPU and Intel CPU is different. AMD refers to the data bus frequency between the CPU and memory as Northbridge or CPU-NB . Intel refers to their design as QPI, for the more recent CPUs. Their general purpose is the same, but other than that, the designs are different so you can not directly compare.

Cheers
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