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post #2711 of 3492
There is so much potential here, for the first time in a long time, dare say since dual core release. But like that software has a big part in this. Thank god for Mantle.
post #2712 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

You should watch APU13 or at least read up on it. The idea is that the 290x would be doing the main rendering and the GPU on the APU would be doing physics calculations, or some other less intensive calculation besides rendering.

Mantle will completely kill AFR.

However it would give an advantage to APU with 290x as opposed to CPU with 290x. The APU would be able to offload those additional calcualtions from the main rendering GPU. The CPU would have to do them on the main rendering GPU.

I will refer to PhysX, because what Nvidia did here was the exact wrong answer on what to do. And instead was done for the sake of driving profits.

Nvidia took an additional accelerator card, removed it and put that workload on the GPU that renders. The rendering GPU is almost always the bottleneck in a gaming situation, so it hurt overall frame rate and game performance.

What AMD is going to do with Mantle is remove that. So instead of throwing more calculations on the main bottleneck of the system, you're not only taking those extra calculations and putting them elsewhere, you're taking things that the main rendering GPU would have to do (like global illumination, ray tracing, etc) and splitting up the load.

It's a lot bigger than people think and when Mantle catches on, those who didn't embrace it are going to find themselves left behind by lower range systems that properly divide workloads up and spread the main load of the primary bottleneck in a system across several parts.

I've done some reading, unfortunately with a heavy work load IRL I've not really had much chance. frown.gif

Just sereox's statement threw me for a curve ball. and i miss understood its meaning.

is fast memory + dGPU touched on at all in the apu13? i've still got a fair amount to read on it.

p.s. +rep great anwser
Edited by FlailScHLAMP - 1/9/14 at 11:08am
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post #2713 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlailScHLAMP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

You should watch APU13 or at least read up on it. The idea is that the 290x would be doing the main rendering and the GPU on the APU would be doing physics calculations, or some other less intensive calculation besides rendering.

Mantle will completely kill AFR.

However it would give an advantage to APU with 290x as opposed to CPU with 290x. The APU would be able to offload those additional calcualtions from the main rendering GPU. The CPU would have to do them on the main rendering GPU.

I will refer to PhysX, because what Nvidia did here was the exact wrong answer on what to do. And instead was done for the sake of driving profits.

Nvidia took an additional accelerator card, removed it and put that workload on the GPU that renders. The rendering GPU is almost always the bottleneck in a gaming situation, so it hurt overall frame rate and game performance.

What AMD is going to do with Mantle is remove that. So instead of throwing more calculations on the main bottleneck of the system, you're not only taking those extra calculations and putting them elsewhere, you're taking things that the main rendering GPU would have to do (like global illumination, ray tracing, etc) and splitting up the load.

It's a lot bigger than people think and when Mantle catches on, those who didn't embrace it are going to find themselves left behind by lower range systems that properly divide workloads up and spread the main load of the primary bottleneck in a system across several parts.

I've done some reading, unfortunately with a heavy work load IRL I've not really had much chance. frown.gif

Just sereox's statement threw me for a curve ball. and i miss understood its meaning.

is fast memory + dGPU touched on at all in the apu13? i've still got a fair amount to read on it.

Sort of, that is what I am getting at regarding Infiniband. PCIe 3.0 at under 16GB/s is not nearly enough bandwidth for HSA over dGPU.

Inifiband can offer a lot more bandwidth, enough to make something like that possible.

There was a small presentation where AMD was hinting at a future system where APUs are placed on add-in cards, like GPUs are now, and those add in cards all can use coherent memory. Inifiband was mentioned in it as well. I tried looking for you and I couldn't see it, it wasn't a big presentation at all. I recall just one guy talking about it and mentioning it was far off.

But it did relatively confirm that a sort of platform for AMD which would allow dCPU + dGPU + APU to all access shared memory in a single system.

Whether it actually happens or not is still up in the air. I also talked with a drunk guy from IBM in a litecoin chatroom and he told me some nice things too.

But I think that AMD has every motive to keep absolutely quiet about plans like that, because it would completely cannibalize APU sales. I wouldn't bother waiting for it to come either. It might never come at all and IMO it'll be a while before it actually shows up.
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post #2714 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Sort of, that is what I am getting at regarding Infiniband. PCIe 3.0 at under 16GB/s is not nearly enough bandwidth for HSA over dGPU.

Inifiband can offer a lot more bandwidth, enough to make something like that possible.

There was a small presentation where AMD was hinting at a future system where APUs are placed on add-in cards, like GPUs are now, and those add in cards all can use coherent memory. Inifiband was mentioned in it as well. I tried looking for you and I couldn't see it, it wasn't a big presentation at all. I recall just one guy talking about it and mentioning it was far off.

But it did relatively confirm that a sort of platform for AMD which would allow dCPU + dGPU + APU to all access shared memory in a single system.

Whether it actually happens or not is still up in the air. I also talked with a drunk guy from IBM in a litecoin chatroom and he told me some nice things too.

But I think that AMD has every motive to keep absolutely quiet about plans like that, because it would completely cannibalize APU sales. I wouldn't bother waiting for it to come either. It might never come at all and IMO it'll be a while before it actually shows up.

"if its possible it isn't ready yet" is essentially the short of what i take from that. cool beans.

so i don't need to selll something off to fund a 290x lightning to pair with it. lmao! I don't really want to consider it until they overhaul or at least seriously update their games bundle.

This is good news for me.
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post #2715 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Sort of, that is what I am getting at regarding Infiniband. PCIe 3.0 at under 16GB/s is not nearly enough bandwidth for HSA over dGPU.

Inifiband can offer a lot more bandwidth, enough to make something like that possible.

hang on now, I think you might have gotten ahead of yourself. Infiniband is a system interconnect and it rated in gb, or gigabits. PCI-E is an internal interconnect and is rated for GB, or gigabytes. Even if you used a massive 12x infiniband connection on the highest end system possible you only get a theoretical max throughput of 37.5GB/s with infiniband before overhead is accounted for. And that type of interconnect would cost a small fortune for 1, let alone using it a few times, as well as the amount of space those controllers will take up for that many infiniband connection channels. More often you will see a midrange solution that is actually affordable and it will run about 40-50 gigabit speed, which is only 6.5 GB/s at theoretical best.
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post #2716 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Sort of, that is what I am getting at regarding Infiniband. PCIe 3.0 at under 16GB/s is not nearly enough bandwidth for HSA over dGPU.

Inifiband can offer a lot more bandwidth, enough to make something like that possible.

hang on now, I think you might have gotten ahead of yourself. Infiniband is a system interconnect and it rated in gb, or gigabits. PCI-E is an internal interconnect and is rated for GB, or gigabytes. Even if you used a massive 12x infiniband connection on the highest end system possible you only get a theoretical max throughput of 37.5GB/s with infiniband before overhead is accounted for. And that type of interconnect would cost a small fortune for 1, let alone using it a few times, as well as the amount of space those controllers will take up for that many infiniband connection channels. More often you will see a midrange solution that is actually affordable and it will run about 40-50 gigabit speed, which is only 6.5 GB/s at theoretical best.

Which is why I said it would be a ways off. I know there are 8 bits to a byte, so all your calculations are right. But regardless even current Inifiband bandwidth is much faster than PCIe 3.0. But AMD would need to devise a better controller and they would still need more bandwidth.

But just an FYI, AMD is not the only one looking to do things like this. Intel is leaving PCIe 3.0 behind for QPI direct to Knight's Landing to share memory: http://www.realworldtech.com/knights-landing-details/2/

2133mhz DDR3 is about 17GB/s. Dual channel already would bury PCIe 3.0. Current infiniband would at least be able to cope with it.

Which of course is why I was mentioning Hypertransport over Infiniband or Inifiniband over Hypertransport to Seronx earlier, because AMD would not directly be using Infiniband, but some sort of alternate version of it.

But the company that comes up with a working implementation of main processing unit and additional add in boards all sharing memory and working together very well will be the winner of several HPC contracts and will more than likely establish themselves as the workstation platform.

The goals of HSA and Mantle (contrary to what everyone has been saying, Mantle is a complete god send for people who do 3d work, from running GI calculations to improving 3d viewport performance) seem to align very well with what that type of platform would be useful for.

To me it seems almost assured that something like this will eventually come out of AMD. There is no way they could use sub $170 APUs as their high end product for the rest of the company's life. There is a ton of money to be made from the professional and HPC market, and more often than not vendors like Nvidia and AMD find themselves adding an extra zero to the cost of the product just because it's a FirePro/Opteron/Quadro/Tesla/etc.

I simply don't think that AMD would be pushing HSA and Mantle so gamers get higher frame rates and your budget APU that's less than half the speed of a high end GPU can go twice as fast when decoding jpegs.

That just seems like a lot of wasted potential and a lot of wasted profits, doesn't it? If I were the CEO, I'd be telling those engineers they better come up with something to get HSA and Mantle into the lucrative professional market as soon as possible. One large university or for profit organization that needs massive compute performance ordering 10,000+ AMD products at professional rates would be quite massive compare to AMD trying to get OEMs to use their products in laptops and phones.
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post #2717 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

It only works with XDMA engines.

Kaveri+Hawaii XT
512+2816

Kaveri+Hawaii Pro
512+2560

Kaveri+Bonaire XTX(R7 260X, the 7790 which is Bonaire XT has it disabled)
512+896

Kaveri+Oland XT
512+384

So, if you find a board with 3 * pcie 3.0 x16 slots via a switch.

512+2816+2816+2816 => 8960 ALUs and Mantle and HSA can use all of them without Legacy Crossfire being enabled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

It works with PCIe 2.0 and PCIe 3.0, it is recommend for slots with an aggregate of 16 GB/s at least.

FX + R9 290X + R9 290X or FX + R7 260X + R7 260X will work the same way with A10-7850K + R9 290X + R9 290X or A10-7850K + R7 260X + R7 260X.

The FX solution will be slower do to system memory and GPU memory not being fused.

If you want to maximize system and GPU memory, you'll want to put the HDMI/Displayport into the Motherboard not the Discrete GPU. The reason for this is that XDMA will send all the render data to the APU. The APU will handle presentation while the GPUs will handle all the data and processing.


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post #2718 of 3492
GPU Task Begin -> GPU Command (Spooky or Spectre) -> GPU Processing (1-2x (Oland, Bonaire, Hawaii)) -> GPU Post-Processing and Presentation (Spooky or Spectre) -> GPU Task End

Post-processing is smooth video frame blending as the (Spooky and Spectre) iGPUs receives finished frames from the dGPUs in the slots. This uses the "FreeSync" technology when available so be sure to put the HDMI or DisplayPort into the motherboard.

Spooky and Spectre are the names for Kaveri's iGPUs.
Edited by Seronx - 1/9/14 at 1:21pm
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post #2719 of 3492
What is the difference between Spooky and Spectre exactly? Is it just binning?
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post #2720 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

What is the difference between Spooky and Spectre exactly? Is it just binning?
One has 8 CUs and the other has 6 CUs, both should be at 720 MHz.
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