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post #3231 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadope View Post

It sure is, It's getting hard to keep up. It seems like no one really knows which node AMD is going to next but no matter what they choose they are all designed for low power mobile. Is tdp a limiting factor on a low power mobile node or is it clock speed or both?
20nm LPM is Low Power Manufacturing, it means that it is cheap and less costly to manufacture. It doesn't mean that it is for Low Power Mobile parts.

GlobalFoundries currently uses the most confusing node names:
20nm LPM, to mark our switch to Gate Last, we will emphasis how much less power we need.
14nm XM, to mark our switch to FinFETs, we will emphasis how much electromigration effects FinFET Devices.

Gate Last nodes requires less power to be manufactured in comparison to Gate First nodes.
FinFETs have extremely mobile electron/ions which can destroy the functionality of the device.

Ya, bad names for nodes are the win. 20nm-LPM will probably have higher clock rates than 22nm FinFETs offered to Intel.

Just to point out that; the 22nm SOI node and the 20nm LPM node are only 10% away from each other in performance.

20nm LPM should be called High Performance, Low Cost. 20nm HPC, ya a much better name.
Edited by Seronx - 4/13/14 at 3:33am
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post #3232 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

20nm LPM is Low Power Manufacturing, it means that it is cheap and less costly to manufacture. It doesn't mean that it is for Low Power Mobile parts.

GlobalFoundries currently the most confusing node names:
20nm LPM, to mark our switch to Gate Last, we will emphasis how much less power we need.
14nm XM, to mark our switch to FinFETs, we will emphasis how much electromigration effects FinFET Devices.

Gate Last nodes requires less power to be manufacture in comparison to Gate First nodes.
FinFETs have extremely mobile electron/ions which can destroy the functionality of the device.

Ya, bad names for nodes are the win. 20nm-LPM will probably have higher clock rates than 22nm FinFETs offered to Intel.

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the info. Do you know the main differences between 20nm-LPM (Low-Power Manufacturing) and 20nm-SHP (Super High Performance)? Both were being developed at the same time before 20nm-SHP was cancelled. It's rumored Excavator was originally going to release on 20nm-SHP.

The good news is 20nm-LPM is suppose to be SOI. That hasn't changed has it?
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post #3233 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadope View Post

The good news is 20nm-LPM is suppose to be SOI. That hasn't changed has it?
20nm LPM is Gate Last(Replacement Metal Gate) Bulk like TSMC's 20nm SoC.

AMD has a;

GF28A to GF20LPM shuttle.

AMD also has a;

GF20LPM to and from TSMC20SOC shuttle as well.

Sony's Playstation 4 and Microsoft's Xbox One has three planned shuttles.

TSMC28xxx -> GF28A -> GF20LPM -> TSMC20SOC.
Edited by Seronx - 4/13/14 at 3:40am
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post #3234 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

@NaroonGTX;


K15.4, 15h architecture 40h-4Fh is a thing and it is listed in the Software Optimization guide.

Yeah, the guide is available for download at AMD official site, it did raise a few eyebrows 3 months ago. It is feasible but for it to exist a new platform must be introduced so we should be keeping an eye for leaks from motherboard vendors etc. I still have serious doubts though.
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post #3235 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadope View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronal View Post

When is the non apu steamroller cpu being released?

Never, we may see another FX chip with excavator. Only if one is created for the server market and brought over to the consumer desktop. Follow the server roapmaps for a early indication.

Please don't appeal to the past like that. Just because AMD has traditionally brought over server chips to desktop, doesn't mean they always will.

AMD's server share is absolutely horrible. Meanwhile, DIY gaming market is taking off like crazy. So is HPC. It doesn't make sense for AMD to continue to move big x86 cores from server to desktop anymore. I'm expecting either a platform designed specifically around gaming or a platform which is designed for HPC and then is transfered over to desktop. The server to desktop transitioning of products should be dead, and if it isn't, I'll be amazed.

But I don't take that as proof that AMD is done with big cores for HEDT. It just means that they're doing it differently. HPC and DIY gaming is too strong of a market. AMD could also hit up workstations and that sort of market as well, though I hear workstations aren't doing so well.

Then again, I don't now what kind of workstations those surveys are talking about. I'm thinking more along the lines of CAD, 3d modelling, engineering, etc that require lots of computer power and where HSA would really, really shine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadope View Post

I want to believe, but I have more doubts than I used to. Not towards you Seronx, but towards the market. I just think AMD's budget is very limited atm and it makes sense to invest that budget in areas where AMD doesn't compete directly with Intel. That being said though, I would be ecstatic if we got some new FX chips. They would have to be 5 modules+ though to offer a significant performance increase due to the reduced clocks on 28nm bulk. Honestly, I'd rather see them skip Steamroller FX and release excavator FX in 2015 with DDR4. That would be something a more significant upgrade.

Which is why I am personally fond of AMD going for HPC or Workstation and translating that platform to HEDT. HSA will give AMD a massive advantage over Intel and Nvidia in raw performance. If AMD can get HSA working on a larger scale than a single APU (either multiple APUs sharing memory or dCPU and dGPU working together) with HSA, Nvida and Intel won't be able to compete. All it would take is one big partner, like Autodesk or Adobe, and it'd be over. No amount of single thread or cores in a traditional system would be able to make up for it.

AMD could then just take whatever is left and sell it as HEDT parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadope View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

Carrizo and Classy should be on 20nm LPM since GF28A is meant to be a shuttle process down to 20nm. AMD's node jumping is a little weird. The FX part will have 8 modules on one die as far as I know.

It sure is, It's getting hard to keep up. It seems like no one really knows which node AMD is going to next but no matter what they choose they are all designed for low power mobile. Is tdp a limiting factor on a low power mobile node or is it clock speed or both?

We do know that AMD is only committed to bulk at 28nm. There's a video floating around the internet somewhere where someone is interviewing someone from AMD and constantly asking them about bulk and SOI beyond 28nm and the AMD basically just goes "we're using 28nm bulk" and writes off everything after that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

@NaroonGTX;


K15.4, 15h architecture 40h-4Fh is a thing and it is listed in the Software Optimization guide.

Yeah, the guide is available for download at AMD official site, it did raise a few eyebrows 3 months ago. It is feasible but for it to exist a new platform must be introduced so we should be keeping an eye for leaks from motherboard vendors etc. I still have serious doubts though.

I just think of Hawaii release. It was a giant secret and it blindsided a lot of people. Nvidia is still caught with their pants down and they won't have an answer to R9 295 x2. AMD has at least proved that they are capable of keeping a huge secret for a long time, and they are still capable of being very competitive with their old competition.

However I don't think we can take AMD roadmaps at face value anymore. Remember all those roadmap leaks saying everything was stable throughout 2013 with GPUs? And remember how everyone was disappointed? And then remember how 290x was released and made Titan look like a clown in 2013?

I'm just taking what AMD showed us with Hawaii:

1. If they have a good product, they're not going to tell us about it
2. They aren't afraid of not putting things on roadmaps to keep secrets
3. They want to be competitive in high end things (like fighting against Titan and Titan-Z)

Also, stop and consider the purpose of HSA and the types of problems it solves. And then ask yourself if those types of problems are things that would really, really benefit from a more powerful solution than a 65w Carrizo APU. Now ask yourself if that's AMD's plans for the next several years. 65w APUs and HSA? To replace 500w graphics cards? Stop and ask yourself how absurd that sounds...
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post #3236 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

I just think of Hawaii release. It was a giant secret and it blindsided a lot of people. Nvidia is still caught with their pants down and they won't have an answer to R9 295 x2. AMD has at least proved that they are capable of keeping a huge secret for a long time, and they are still capable of being very competitive with their old competition.

However I don't think we can take AMD roadmaps at face value anymore. Remember all those roadmap leaks saying everything was stable throughout 2013 with GPUs? And remember how everyone was disappointed? And then remember how 290x was released and made Titan look like a clown in 2013?

I'm just taking what AMD showed us with Hawaii:

1. If they have a good product, they're not going to tell us about it
2. They aren't afraid of not putting things on roadmaps to keep secrets
3. They want to be competitive in high end things (like fighting against Titan and Titan-Z)

Also, stop and consider the purpose of HSA and the types of problems it solves. And then ask yourself if those types of problems are things that would really, really benefit from a more powerful solution than a 65w Carrizo APU. Now ask yourself if that's AMD's plans for the next several years. 65w APUs and HSA? To replace 500w graphics cards? Stop and ask yourself how absurd that sounds...

This is definitely true, but AMD's GPU division has been in a much better shape than there CPU division for a long time. They can compete with a company like Nvidia much easier than they can compete with the giant that is Intel. It's not that surprising that a high end part came out of nowhere for a division that has been executing and delivering high performance products for years now. The difference is for the CPU division to do it, it would be like my uncle pulling a rabbit out of a hat, and he's no magician. tongue.gif

Actually I should rephrase, I could definitely see the CPU division doing something like this. However, I don't see it being as big or as game changing as something like the 290X. I hope I am wrong though, I would really like to see AMD have a cpu that could compete with an i5 on all levels and then have the added bonus of HSA.
Edited by Papadope - 4/13/14 at 2:36pm
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post #3237 of 3492
Its incredibly upsetting how AMD just keeps on punching nvidia while their CPU get slapped around like the weird kid on the playground by Intel. Every PC in my house is AMD. 2 Athlon II x4, 2 Phenom II x4, 1 8150, 1 4100, 1 6200.

Many like me support them like this, but its really starting to feel vein. If they don't put out something good or at least make a mention for desktop soon, I may have to go Intel for my next upgrade. I was debating an 8350 since my board can take it, but I'm not sure anymore.
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post #3238 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by heroxoot View Post

Its incredibly upsetting how AMD just keeps on punching nvidia while their CPU get slapped around like the weird kid on the playground by Intel.

I guess there just isn't enough of a *need* for stupid fast CPUs these days, anything intensive is done on GPUs now, leaving CPUs left to just handle I/O and large amounts of active data, of which in-hardware HSA just means the CPU nolonger has to package and stream data to GPU space, GPU can just access the data it needs itself.

I wonder how many people know of openGL's context sharing that's already very similar to openCL2.0...
(ie; you can use multiple GPUs etc with shared memory, provided the driver has it enabled)
   
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post #3239 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by heroxoot View Post

Its incredibly upsetting how AMD just keeps on punching nvidia while their CPU get slapped around like the weird kid on the playground by Intel. Every PC in my house is AMD. 2 Athlon II x4, 2 Phenom II x4, 1 8150, 1 4100, 1 6200.

Many like me support them like this, but its really starting to feel vein. If they don't put out something good or at least make a mention for desktop soon, I may have to go Intel for my next upgrade. I was debating an 8350 since my board can take it, but I'm not sure anymore.

Killer 2014-2015 cpu = maybe competitive for performance, instead of multithreaded value

2012 CPU priced between i3 and i5 = much harder to sell to someone who wants to wreck everything CPU-limited that they come across
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post #3240 of 3492
Quote:
Originally Posted by heroxoot View Post

Its incredibly upsetting how AMD just keeps on punching nvidia while their CPU get slapped around like the weird kid on the playground by Intel. Every PC in my house is AMD. 2 Athlon II x4, 2 Phenom II x4, 1 8150, 1 4100, 1 6200.

Many like me support them like this, but its really starting to feel vein. If they don't put out something good or at least make a mention for desktop soon, I may have to go Intel for my next upgrade. I was debating an 8350 since my board can take it, but I'm not sure anymore.

Yeah I felt the same, then for the fun of it I took a look at AMD/intel/nvidia market caps smile.gif
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