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Benchmark: Should I defragment my system? Which defragmenter is best? - Page 2

post #11 of 37
Thread Starter 
    Ah, you're perfectly on time!

    I could not upgrade XP to 7, so I had to do a fresh install (which is better for the test anyway, but takes me longer).  I had just about finished setting up the Windows 7 test system and then ReadyBoot quit working, leaving Windows 7 with no boot-time prefetching.  It now takes over 2 minutes to boot (previously, it was just over a minute).  Still, both times are slower than XP (which is what I expected wink.gif).  As you can see with the chart in my first post, Windows XP properly defragmented took about 22 seconds to boot the same computer by comparison.
    Then, several days ago, a very close out-of-the-blue lightning bolt knocked out two surge protected computers here (motherboards fried; PSUs, RAM, HDDs and CPUs perfectly fine on both) and I've been busy making repairs/replacements and setting things up.  I hope to figure out what's wrong with ReadyBoot (not to be confused with ReadyBoost) and get going with the test soon! smile.gif
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post #12 of 37
Bump, how are your tests going? Sorry to hear about your misfortune with the weather
     
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post #13 of 37
I know you posted this a while ago but it just became relevant for my situation. I was going to download mydefrag but the problem is that their website has not been updated since 2009. I am running a Win8 laptop and because it hasn't been updated since 2009, there is no Win8 support (I know Win8 is basically Win7). Also, on my other computer I have an SSD for my OS and an HDD for everything else. How will this program function in that environment since my OS files will not be subject to defragging?
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post #14 of 37
Thread Starter 
    As far as I can tell in my virtual machine, MyDefrag works just as well in Windows 8.1 as it does in Windows 7, so I wouldn't worry about its age.  The biggest change over time really has been the increasing popularity of SSDs.  The NTFS filesystem is basically the same, and so are HDD access performance patterns.  I think it is sad that of all the defragmenters on the market, a four year old free program is still by far the best, and that the very popular Auslogics defragmenter is one of the worst available (being very addictive, arranging the files in such a way that the disk quickly refragments).
    In most cases, I honestly don't think defragmenting is going to be worth the effort when using any other defragmenter than MyDefrag.  If you don't want to use that program, I recommend using the built-in Windows defragmenter since all the "runner-ups" to MyDefrag are payware.

    As far as your computer with the SSD and HDD, you can use MyDefrag on the HDD no problem; just tell it to use the Data Disk Monthly script instead of the System Disk Monthly script.  And I don't think you need to defragment your data disks frequently (as in even once a month), since the performance doesn't start degrading that much until the files are in a big mess (the nice, detailed disk map that MyDefrag shows can let you get a good idea of how tidy the drive is).  Now, if you have programs or games installed on the HDD, that makes it a "kind of" system drive, and you might want to use the System Disk Monthly script in it (after all) so that MyDefrag will place your program and game files at the beginning of the drive for faster access. thumb.gif
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post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Techie007 View Post

    As far as I can tell in my virtual machine, MyDefrag works just as well in Windows 8.1 as it does in Windows 7, so I wouldn't worry about its age.  The biggest change over time really has been the increasing popularity of SSDs.  The NTFS filesystem is basically the same, and so are HDD access performance patterns.  I think it is sad that of all the defragmenters on the market, a four year old free program is still by far the best, and that the very popular Auslogics defragmenter is one of the worst available (being very addictive, arranging the files in such a way that the disk quickly refragments).
    In most cases, I honestly don't think defragmenting is going to be worth the effort when using any other defragmenter than MyDefrag.  If you don't want to use that program, I recommend using the built-in Windows defragmenter since all the "runner-ups" to MyDefrag are payware.

    As far as your computer with the SSD and HDD, you can use MyDefrag on the HDD no problem; just tell it to use the Data Disk Monthly script instead of the System Disk Monthly script.  And I don't think you need to defragment your data disks frequently (as in even once a month), since the performance doesn't start degrading that much until the files are in a big mess (the nice, detailed disk map that MyDefrag shows can let you get a good idea of how tidy the drive is).  Now, if you have programs or games installed on the HDD, that makes it a "kind of" system drive, and you might want to use the System Disk Monthly script in it (after all) so that MyDefrag will place your program and game files at the beginning of the drive for faster access. thumb.gif

+1 rep

Thanks for the advice. I think I will stick with the built in defrag on both systems because the SSD has my OS on it and the HDD only gets a bit fragmented from time to time.

By the way, is it true that having my OS work from my SSD also makes my HDD work better or is that just the placebo effect? When I upgraded to the SSD, I noticed that using the HDD only for the task at hand (mainly with game load times) made it run faster and made it less likely to become fragmented. Maybe it's just me but there might be something to that you know?
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post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

By the way, is it true that having my OS work from my SSD also makes my HDD work better or is that just the placebo effect? When I upgraded to the SSD, I noticed that using the HDD only for the task at hand (mainly with game load times) made it run faster and made it less likely to become fragmented. Maybe it's just me but there might be something to that you know?

    Yes, there is definitely something to that, especially if you have the pagefile on the SSD too.  For one, the OS is comprised of many small files, some of which get replaced from time to time by Windows Update.  Both of those (small files + replacing files) greatly increase the likelihood of fragmentation occurring.  Of course, that fragmentation is still happening on the SSD, although it affects performance much less because of the extremely fast random read speeds of SSDs.  Also, since HDDs have very slow random read speeds, the HDD appears faster because it is no longer doing three things at a time (reading various OS files, paging memory to the disk, and loading your games), and can now do more sequential reads, where its data rate can approach 1/4–1/2 of a SSD's data rate (as opposed to 1/100–1/50 when reading randomly).
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post #17 of 37
I like what I call Hardware Accelerated defragmenting the best. (Simply an extra HDD)
Move files from Drive A to Drive B, quick-format Drive A, Move files back from Drive B to Drive A.
Result: 0 Fragmented files, 0 Fragmented free space.

I do it all manually, and it gives me better (and noticeably quicker) results than Defraggler does. I actually like defraggler for drives that cannot be reformatted, like system drives, but perhaps it's a piece of garbage that's unnecessarily slow. Who knows. If Defraggler isn't a piece of garbage (Which I doubt), then my method will probably beat any software single-disk solution out there if you have access to multiple drives.


I don't know any programming language, but I bet it'd be easy to program something to do this, for example in something humans can understand but a computer would not.
-Copy all of Drive A to Drive B
-When transfer is complete, reformat (Quick-Format Option / other Settings) Drive A
-When Reformat of Drive A is complete -> Move contents of Drive B back to Drive A

You have the option of simply avoiding step 2 as well, leaving you with a defragmented copy of your files and you can instead change the drive letters around to make your computer act as if Drive B magically became Drive A unfragmented, if you have two of the same sized/performance drives. And a fragmented backup!, that would be cycled around with reformats repeating the cycle making your backups and defragments condensed into one step.
Edited by Shadow11377 - 3/3/14 at 10:46pm
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post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

I like what I call Hardware Accelerated defragmenting the best. (Simply an extra HDD)
Move files from Drive A to Drive B, quick-format Drive A, Move files back from Drive B to Drive A.
Result: 0 Fragmented files, 0 Fragmented free space.

I do it all manually, and it gives me better (and noticeably quicker) results than Defraggler does. I actually like defraggler for drives that cannot be reformatted, like system drives, but perhaps it's a piece of garbage that's unnecessarily slow. Who knows. If Defraggler isn't a piece of garbage (Which I doubt), then my method will probably beat any software single-disk solution out there if you have access to multiple drives.


I don't know any programming language, but I bet it'd be easy to program something to do this, for example in something humans can understand but a computer would not.
-Copy all of Drive A to Drive B
-When transfer is complete, reformat (Quick-Format Option / other Settings) Drive A
-When Reformat of Drive A is complete -> Move contents of Drive B back to Drive A

You have the option of simply avoiding step 2 as well, leaving you with a defragmented copy of your files and you can instead change the drive letters around to make your computer act as if Drive B magically became Drive A unfragmented, if you have two of the same sized/performance drives. And a fragmented backup!, that would be cycled around with reformats repeating the cycle making your backups and defragments condensed into one step.

    Interesting idea.  I like it when people think outside of the box and come up with creative ideas like this! thumb.gif

    That said, there are some very good reasons why this would not give best performance:
 
    Pros:
  1. Removes "deep" fragments (no defragmenter currently on the market does this).
  2. Creates a sorted MFT (no defragmenter currently on the market can do this).
  3. An automatic backup occurs during such defragmentation.
  4. Absolutely no risk of file loss (or corruption) on the original disk if power is lost during defragmentation.
 
    Cons:
  1. Requires an extra HDD.
  2. Unless special software is used, the files will not be sorted by category or usage pattern.
  3. Unless special software is used, it would destroy NTFS file permissions and hard links (think about the User profile folders).
  4. Cannot result in zero file fragments, since many folder B-tree entry files will have to be expanded beyond their original starting point after more files get written to those folders, resulting in their fragmentation.
  5. Cannot result in zero freespace fragments, since the NTFS filesystem does not operate this way on its own.
  6. The B-tree files will be scattered throughout the file area instead of next to the MFT and each other, resulting in slow searches.
  7. Regardless of the fragmentation level, it will always take the "full" time to defragment.  However, its full time will be shorter than the full time for "on disk" defragmentation, because of the reduced seeking required.
  8. Would not be bootable unless other software was used to copy the boot sector or write a new one.
  9. Would remove NTFS bad-sector mapping set by chkdsk on the original HDD when it was formatted.  Of course, such HDDs should be replaced anyway.


    I recently "cloned" a HDD in order to upgrade it, and the software I used (Farstone DriveClone) actually did this (copy files and folders) instead of copying disk sectors.  It even copied all the permissions and set up the hard links just as they were on the original disk.  Needless to say, I was impressed.  When it was done, there were thousands of fragments on the destination HDD, and the system ran slower in spite of the fact that the new HDD was faster than the old one.  Defragmenting it with my experimental defragmenter restored the system's usual snappiness.

    I still have the image of the test system I used earlier laying around, and I may test this sometime just for fun to see how it rates.  If/when I do, I will add it to the charts in my first post. smile.gif
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post #19 of 37
Regarding MyDefrag, is there a script that consolidates free space to the beginning of the drive (outside of the platter) rather than the end?
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post #20 of 37
Thread Starter 
    Yes, MyDefrag actually comes with a script that will move all files to the end of the drive.  The script is included in its "Example Scripts" folder.  To make that script appear and be selectable in the MyDefrag program, open Windows Explorer and navigate to "C:\Program Files (x86)\MyDefrag v4.3.1\Example Scripts" and copy the "MoveToEndOfDisk.MyD" file to the "Scripts" folder.  When you start MyDefrag, that script will be in its list of scripts, named "Move to end of disk".

    I'm curious, why would you want to do this?
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