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3570k 4.5Ghz OC Temps Need Help - Page 6

post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunreeper View Post

Look I see several problems with your post. Your one fact is a graph which shows an air cooler with almost the same performance as that h100. Anyways it seems like all you're doing in this post is calling me ignorant and biased (even though as I said before every individual is biased). I'm too lazy to correct your fallacies in another long post. So I'll be the bigger man here and just say we'll just agree to disagree. It's obvious you're not going to budge from your preconceived notions anyway.

Yes, continues to attack me in all of the posts you make. Then when you are treated in the same manner, suddenly now you want to be the bigger man. So "preconceived." Like I've never used heatsinks before in my other computers. Even though I'm the biggest fan of Thermalright Products, and used them in all of my builds. "So biased." or, maybe I just evolve my thinking according to the technology available like any sane individual would do. Maybe you should re-read some of your old posts before you take the poor me stance. There's another graph that has the H100 behind a Phase Change unit, and then there's almost like 50 other coolers below it:

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2671&page=5

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

You know, calling air cooling ancient kind of degenerates your stance here Big Stroonz. Most of the AIO units you talk about are not much better than high end air coolers, if at all sometimes.

Where AIO units shine, are SFF builds but other than that it has about the same cooling capacity as a high end air cooler. There are however also drawbacks. Coolant in an AIO unit can freeze, potential leakage and pump noise. I can build near ambient sound systems with big heatsinks (or even passive for that matter). Both have their purposes.

Also, OEMs or microprocessor manufacturers not clocking their chips higher/pushing TDP more isn't primarily a heat constraint. It's more a problem of efficiency and board design. Aside from cooling the chip it will also raise the need for more stable and high current 12v rails, higher quality power delivery circuitry (VRMs etc.).

I wouldn't call AIO units superior to air coolers, it's just a matter of taste and dependent on the build (form factor, silence). I do agree however that H220 and H110 AIOs edge out even the high end air coolers but not enough to warrant a substantial gain (or call them superior, more so calling air cooling ancient).

Ok, not much better or " the same performance" except let's look at some more graphs then, shall we:





So whats the only thing that's keeping up with these units. The $80-90 Noctua, that takes up more space than anything inside your entire computer because of how big it's required to be to come near the performance of the sleek, clean, AIO cooling units...

Here we see the H110 and Kraken X60 ahead of everything. With the D14 and a Deepcool Assassin coming close. Probably two of the largest most gigantic ridiculous heatsinks on the market. My point is, in order to get NEAR the performance of one of these AIO units. The extreme massive size and ridiculousness these heat sinks have to be is beyond crazy and that anyone rather put one of these monstrous gargantuan things in their computer, over the small, simple AIO is beyond crazy - technically speaking, it's pretty ancient. It's like someone choosing to walk around with one of those huge cellphones from the 80's that are the size of your ARM instead of grabbing a smart phone. Then trying to explain to you that it still performs great kookoo.gif. You aren't building a computer that runs on a passive heatsink that's doing 4.8-5.0GHz daily. A big heavy heatsink can do all types of damage too. The same crazy things that can go wrong with an AIO unit, a heatsink can do too. Maybe not leakage, or pump noise, but there are surely other concerns - just one look at the size and weight of these things is enough to know that.

Whether or not there are other concerns at clocking their chips higher from the factory. Heat is probably and the most obvious concern, denying that is being pretty stubborn. If my projected theory of 10 years is correct, I'm sure all the concerns that you stated will be fixed on top of the newly adapted cooling methods from the factory - AIO cooling units or maybe something even better

Yes, AIO units are definitely not superior:











... axesmiley.png
Edited by BiG StroOnZ - 7/8/13 at 12:42pm
post #52 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=2671&page=5
Ok, not much better or " the same performance" except let's look at some more graphs then, shall we:


So whats the only thing that's keeping up with these units. The $80-90 Noctua, that takes up more space than anything inside your entire computer because of how big it's required to be to come near the performance of the sleek, clean, AIO cooling units...

 

I highly doubt that since there are very few high end air coolers included in the graphs you posted, which makes sense since a reviewer compares products with a similar target. To name a couple, TR Silver Arrow, TT Frio Extreme, Phanteks PH-TC14PE

 

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5091/thermalright_silver_arrow_sb_e_extreme_cpu_cooler_review/index8.html

 

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Phanteks/PH-TC14PE/6.html

 

Aside from that, no doubt they have about the same cooling capacity in the reviews you linked. 240mm and 120mm rads aren't that beefy and high fin density will need higher static pressure and create more turbulence = noice.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

Here we see the H110 and Kraken X60 ahead of everything. With the D14 and a Deepcool Assassin coming close. Probably two of the largest most gigantic ridiculous heatsinks on the market. My point is, in order to get NEAR the performance of one of these AIO units. The extreme massive size and ridiculousness these heat sinks have to be is beyond crazy and that anyone rather put one of these monstrous gargantuan things in their computer, over the small, simple AIO is beyond crazy - technically speaking, it's pretty ancient. It's like someone choosing to walk around with one of those huge cellphones from the 80's that are the size of your ARM instead of grabbing a smart phone. Then trying to explain to you that it still performs great kookoo.gif. You aren't building a computer that runs on a passive heatsink that's doing 4.8-5.0GHz daily. A big heavy heatsink can do all types of damage too. The same crazy things that can go wrong with an AIO unit, a heatsink can do too. Maybe not leakage, or pump noise, but there are surely other concerns - just one look at the size and weight of these things is enough to know that.
 
True, a heatsink can do damage to a board and socket while in transit or when improperly oriented. Definately an advantage for the AIO coolers, also I mentioned space earlier. The difference is that big mobile phones are not in the same league as a smartphone and have no place in todays market.
 
Air cooling however is not obsolete and has use-cases that make it prefereable over AIO coolers, especially when you consider low profile builds, blades and AIO PCs have no place for thick 120mm or 240mm rads.
 
For Gaming rigs however it's a mattter of preferences and again use-cases of the systembuilder. Obviously you see no reason to get one over an air cooler and that is fine, though that doesn't make them obsolete.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

Whether or not there are other concerns at clocking their chips higher from the factory. Heat is probably and the most obvious concern, denying that is being pretty stubborn. If my projected theory of 10 years is correct, I'm sure all the concerns that you stated will be fixed on top of the newly adapted cooling methods from the factory - AIO cooling units or maybe something even better

Yes, AIO units are definitely not superior:

... axesmiley.png
 
First of all, I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from making this discussion a personal vendetta like the one with Sunreeper above
 
Also, I have actually been involved in IC design and VLSI processes. The primary reason for manufacturers to select ASICs, is because of power envelopes. Simply said, a large ASIC will need an adequate power delivery system to increase durability and reduce metastability and reliability over time. Almost all PCs from ca. 2002 had issues wrt reliability and durability because of the phenomenon now refered to as "The Capacitor Plague".
 
This problem wasn't as much of a heat problem as it was a power delivery problem. The ASICs are clocked by manufacturers at a target where relative yield and physics (leakage, dynamic power consumption) are still appreciable. That's the difference between tweaking and engineering. They have to guarantee that their chip and platform will function under certain load for a certain period. Heat is a secondary problem that will vary with ambients (case, room temperature, other components).
 
Also, AIO coolers don't cool the VRMs which is a major problem for platforms like Patsburg (S2011, X79)
 
Just to be sure, my stance was that the cooling capacity of the new high-end AIO coolers are superior to air coolers (even if marginal in most cases) and air cooling isn't "ancient" technology. Not that AIO units are inferior to air coolers.

Edited by TheBlademaster01 - 7/8/13 at 1:35pm
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post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlademaster01 View Post

I highly doubt that since there are very few high end air coolers included in the graphs you posted, which makes sense since a reviewer compares products with a similar target. To name a couple, TR Silver Arrow, TT Frio Extreme, Phanteks PH-TC14PE

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5091/thermalright_silver_arrow_sb_e_extreme_cpu_cooler_review/index8.html

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Phanteks/PH-TC14PE/6.html

Aside from that, no doubt they have about the same cooling capacity in the reviews you linked. 240mm and 120mm rads aren't that beefy and high fin density will need higher static pressure and create more turbulence = noice.

True, a heatsink can do damage to a board and socket while in transit or when improperly oriented. Definately an advantage for the AIO coolers, also I mentioned space earlier. The difference is that big mobile phones are not in the same league as a smartphone and have no place in todays market.

Air cooling however is not obsolete and has use-cases that make it prefereable over AIO coolers, especially when you consider low profile builds, blades and AIO PCs have no place for thick 120mm or 240mm rads.

For Gaming rigs however it's a mattter of preferences and again use-cases of the systembuilder. Obviously you see no reason to get one over an air cooler and that is fine, though that doesn't make them obsolete.

First of all, I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from making this discussion a personal vendetta like the one with Sunreeper above

Also, I have actually been involved in IC design and VLSI processes. The primary reason for manufacturers to select ASICs, is because of power envelopes. Simply said, a large ASIC will need an adequate power delivery system to increase durability and reduce metastability and reliability over time. Almost all PCs from ca. 2002 had issues wrt reliability and durability because of the phenomenon now refered to as "The Capacitor Plague".

This problem wasn't as much of a heat problem as it was a power delivery problem. The ASICs are clocked by manufacturers at a target where relative yield and physics (leakage, dynamic power consumption) are still appreciable. That's the difference between tweaking and engineering. They have to guarantee that their chip and platform will function under certain load for a certain period. Heat is a secondary problem that will vary with ambients (case, room temperature, other components).

Also, AIO coolers don't cool the VRMs which is a major problem for platforms like Patsburg (S2011, X79)

Just to be sure, my stance was that the cooling capacity of the new high-end AIO coolers are superior to air coolers (even if marginal in most cases) and air cooling isn't "ancient" technology. Not that AIO units are inferior to air coolers.

In the Tweaktown review, there aren't even any of the top AIO units presented in any of the graphs. Eg. H100i, H110, X60, Swiftech H220.

In the Techpowerup review. As I stated, there really isn't anything I haven't said yet already that is shown in that review. I've said the top Air coolers like the PH-TC14PE can come in close to the AIO air coolers at lower clocks. Except once you start clocking beyond 4.5GHz that's when you start to see how they do not perform as good. Clock a CPU at 4.8GHz then see your temp differences between the AIO units and these top Air Coolers. Regardless, it still doesn't change how large they are required to be in order to come close to the AIO units. Which are being mounted in spots that you would have fans mounted anyway.

Speaking of higher static pressure, my point is to blow these top air coolers in the dust. A simple fan upgrade allows these units to be greatly increased performance wise. As I have proven with my H100 setup. Which now allows me basically to do benchmark runs all the way up to 5.2-5.4GHz without any concerns of heat because of how well it works. Not really seeing people doing benchmark runs at that high clocks or voltages with any of these Air Coolers...

Just like in certain applications air cooling methods are still going to be required, I surely believe that there are certain pc builds that may generally be more applicable for air cooling as well. However, straight up tower builds I do not see any other reason that they are needed. Because even in a M-ATX build, you still can fit one probably much easier than a D14. There are some low profile heatsinks available that work well for the type of builds you are talking about. However, I really don't see how you would be building something that wouldn't allow you to fit at least a H80, H70, or H60 to be honest.

No one is saying that at the moment they are obsolete, however, I do believe they will become obsolete as the technology get's better and parts become cheaper for AIO cooling. We will look back on this conversation and say, why are people defending this method of cooling that is in many ways inferior to water cooling units...

Nobody is on a vendetta. Not my intention to come off that way. I just post the facts, and my beliefs are based upon the facts.

As I stated in the last post, regardless of what issues manufactures were dealing with in the past and continue to deal with. As time goes on these particular issues will slowly diminish and more simple problems will arise. ie. how can we cool these CPU's better from the factory to be able to clock them faster. Other components will also be of a higher quality in the future, such as VRM's and MOSFETS on the motherboards. These parts will only become cheaper, therefore allowing the manufacturers to employ higher grade parts making these "plagues" that you speak of from the past quite irrelevant. As you can see now with how high we are able to overclock our CPU's currently, using motherboards that cost as little as $120-130 without any issues. Eventually this technology will only get better, and be widely available even from the OEMs.

The thing is though, even if that is your stance. I do not believe it is marginal. There are far many more cons to a big bulky air cooler than there are pros. Other than the obvious pro, to still say you use some fancy attractive looking air cooler with mix matched colors or chrome or copper etc. In the end, you put higher static pressure fans on any of these AIO units and it makes these air coolers pretty irrelevant as I have proven with my own setup. smile.gif
Edited by BiG StroOnZ - 7/9/13 at 9:52pm
post #54 of 54
Interesting discussion we have here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TpYourHouse View Post

There are more than 80 WHEA-Logger warnings in my Event Viewer tongue.gif
Whoa, will for sure not be taking that IHS off. I understood that IB was hotter than SB but uhh yeah didn't know it was this hot. I believe I can keep this overclock as long as I never stress test again and only play games. I hope I didn't screw up this chip, its ok though, I've got a 2500k back-up, and soon, Haswell.


This is the first time I saw someone hitting the TJMax. If you really want to test the stability of your rig, I strongly recommend to do atleast 12hours of Prime95, while using 80%-90% of your RAM. I''m not saying that this will guarantee 100% no hardware failure or BSOD but it will make you more confident that you can do anything 24/7 w/out any issues. Lowering your OC should be ok, I prefer stability for everyday use.

For me, Hitting 95c or below in doing stress test is fine because playing any game this time can only give you 70c max i think. I just started building my 1st rig 3 months ago and I did a lot of reading to different threads here in OCN about OCing and it did help me alot.

Currently I'm using 3570K (Not delidded) running 4.9Ghz @ 1.376v. I'm using Corsair H80i and its very quite and the performance is quite impressive. My H80i managed to make my temp lower than 90c in doing 12 hours of Prime w/ 90% RAM usage w/out any issues.

I'm not against Air coolers because I'm using TT Frio before and I reached 4.5 OC w/ a reasonable temp. I just want reach a little more OC, that's why I switched to CLC.

Hope this help. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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