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[CNBC] Intel CFO: PC market is reinventing itself - Page 10

post #91 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Well obviously you can already put quite good chunk of computing power into relatively small and energy efficient volume. However, in my opinion a big box plugged to the wall will have always performance advantage over a small box running off batteries so I don't see the bigger box going away anytime soon. Streaming content will certainly increase in popularity ofc in the tasks were latency is not a huge issue so as such I can see the conventional desktop taking over a role more like "home server" than a traditional desktop in the long run. Even then I would expect some tasks to be done at the big box itself instead of lying on your couch and touching the screen as having a large display and dedicated keyboard/mouse can have some ergonomic advantages for some tasks.

Second issue is that with evolving computing power I do expect to see some new emerging applications which take advantage of that computing power - for example various forms of the virtual reality (like Occulus Rift, for example) and new game engines capable of better simulation of world which will remain too heavyweight for the time being for the mobile devices to handle.

The point is less people need that big box... before laptops were noticeably slower than equivalently priced desktop counterparts in everyday usage. Now they're virtually the same. Only in gaming and CPU intensive programs is there a significant difference.
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post #92 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

The point is less people need that big box... before laptops were noticeably slower than equivalently priced desktop counterparts in everyday usage. Now they're virtually the same. Only in gaming and CPU intensive programs is there a significant difference.

Yes. If all you want to do is to browse web and read email then 3 years old smartphone will do. Or that 30 EUR Android stick I posted earlier. However, I would not go as far as to say that equally priced laptops and desktops are currently virtually the same. There is still significant performance or price gap between desktops and laptops. Which is quite expected considering the weight difference and additional components needed in laptop (like battery, for example).

Anyway what I was trying to say was that longer term (like over half a decade or more longer term) it is entirely possible that as streaming technologies evolve and smaller gadgets gain in power less people need the bix box every day, however, I would still expect most households in developed countries to have a "desktop" system around and that desktop system in such setup is acting more like home server than a traditional desktop but that there will remain tasks which are best done on it. PC gaming is separate platform in there in addition to that in my opinion.
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post #93 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

Yes. If all you want to do is to browse web and read email then 3 years old smartphone will do. Or that 30 EUR Android stick I posted earlier. However, I would not go as far as to say that equally priced laptops and desktops are currently virtually the same. There is still significant performance or price gap between desktops and laptops. Which is quite expected considering the weight difference and additional components needed in laptop (like battery, for example).

Anyway what I was trying to say was that longer term (like over half a decade or more longer term) it is entirely possible that as streaming technologies evolve and smaller gadgets gain in power less people need the bix box every day, however, I would still expect most households in developed countries to have a "desktop" system around and that desktop system in such setup is acting more like home server than a traditional desktop but that there will remain tasks which are best done on it. PC gaming is separate platform in there in addition to that in my opinion.

Yeah, there are some differences, but not that significant. And even cheap $300 laptops are enough for basic gaming, and $300 desktops are full of low end components anyways. Maybe in the $500+ range there's significant differences, but from what I've seen, $400 and below laptops and desktops are very similar.
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post #94 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Yeah, there are some differences, but not that significant. And even cheap $300 laptops are enough for basic gaming, and $300 desktops are full of low end components anyways. Maybe in the $500+ range there's significant differences, but from what I've seen, $400 and below laptops and desktops are very similar.

That is true. At the very low end price bracket laptops have even a slight price advantage as you cant get a decent display at ~ 200 eur price bracket and have enough funds left for actually getting the components for the PC. And obviously easier portability is some advantage as well.

I must admit that my experience with low end laptops is non existent. My current portable system is the sig rig Soliton wink.gif

That is 30 kg btw. Not that bad with shoulder strap as have to carry it only to the car trunk anyway and have display arrays in all locations where I use it.
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post #95 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

G640
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Pentium+G640+%40+2.80GHz&id=1111
1258/core

Athlon X4 740, a FM2 CPU like you suggested, for $79.
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=AMD+Athlon+X4+740+Quad+Core&id=1789
985/core

You still get a 30% single-thread performance boost by going with the Intel chip in this case, and save 10%.

In a synthetic benchmark...which is completely and utterly real world, right? There is a difference for sure, but I'm pointing out that most people will not notice that.
I went from an FX-4170 to an i5 3570k, the difference isn't noticeable at all in general usage and barely noticeable in most games if at all...I'm not the only one saying this either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

Sure, SC2 benefits from up to 3 cores, but the main processing for the game is done almost entirely on one core. The Physics are only a graphical feature, and are CPU based, but is offloaded to a separate core than the main game. So, this means that a Dual-Core or above of course is a much better option than a Single-Core CPU for SC2, but that doesn't do anything to change the fact that is is primarily single-threaded. In big battles, when you're doing micro-management and there can possibly be over 400 units on your screen battling, you will more than likely notice a 30% performance improvement if you chose the G640 over the X4 740.

That doesn't change the fact that it's not single-threaded, and shows definite large increases from more cores..You can say that the main game logic is single-threaded as much as you want but the fact of the matter is even on a dual core, you're going to get lower FPS than a quad core...Which is my point, that more cores generally = better and that games are evolving to make use of more cores. And SC2 lags regardless of CPU in my experience, same with Sins of a Solar Empire (A game that is truly single-threaded) as even a 4.5Ghz Core i5 dips to below 10fps in large battles on that, all of Intels higher single-threaded performance becomes meaningless at that point because both chips are still a slideshow, once an Intel chip is noticably smoother (Really, the only difference now that I can see from running the game on a Phenom II and Core i5 side by side, both at stock is that the Phenom II lags a little earlier, and I certainly didn't notice that difference when I was actually playing it on my FX and then upgraded to my Core i5)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

People still play Runescape, in fact they recently had a big update that makes it more of a button masher these days, and a lot of people are playing it. Still mostly single-threaded. It's not only Runescape that will perform better on an Intel chip, plenty of games do, and will continue to do so for a very long time.

Yes, but it's a smaller game compared to what it used to be..and most of the market, not many people use it for benchmarking either...I'd wager the amount of people who actually notice or care that it's laggy is minimal, especially with the amount of console players who don't care if their games a stuttery mess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

Turn based strategy games, like Civilization 4, use a decent amount of CPU usage for the AI. If you're skipping turns, you'll notice a little pause each time you finish your turn. The slower your CPU is, the longer that wait will be.

I know, I play Civ V all the time, one of the few games I notice the difference between AMD and Intel quite easily...Still doesn't stop me from having to go and do something else while waiting for my next turn in the late-game though. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

It depends on what games you play. RTS/Turn Based Strategy, MMOs and a lot of single-player games are single-threaded. Minecraft was originally, but then they went and changed how it worked. Instead of creating and rendering the world on one thread, it now uses the method online servers do, which is it generates the map on one thread, and you play and interact with it on another.

I play a hell of a lot of RTS/TBS (Age of Empires II HD, Age of Empires III, Civ V, Sins of a Solar Empire, SupCom, occasionally SC2, Empire Earth, Guild 2, Lego Rock Raiders among others) and in most of the ones I play, the difference was not pronounced at all...MMOs is definitely true but single player games? Uh, you sure? Virtually every one I've played recently was GPU bottlenecked or able to be maxed out on a potato.

And yes, I'm aware of Minecraft's internal server, it's also unoptimised as all hell in general and should be getting much higher FPS than it does, I don't say that because the textures look so simple I say that because of mods like Optifine which increase performance drastically and because the main game keeps getting optimized more and more. (My FPS has tripled from 1.4 to 1.6)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Lets start here http://cpuboss.com/cpus/Intel-Pentium-G630-vs-AMD-A10-6800K Now I think this is a no brainer. Unless you are just die-hard intel then the best choice between these 2 is obviously the a10-6800k. Single threaded performance isn't just Intel strength. The argument would be better suited for closer clocks. But as you see here even the Intel chip you mentioned loses the single thread bench to the A10-6800k. Besides as far as iGPU AMD is miles ahead of Intel and the price keeps them there. Now before you break out the 3960k argument, I know Intel is generally clock for clock way better in single threaded performance.

The A10-6800k costs a lot more than that Pentium, though.

The funny thing is..in very specific tasks and with the iGPU enabled, the A10-6800k can actually beat a 3960X using OpenCL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post

all you have to do is give up 2 cores that a casual user would likely not even use.

If we're talking about casual users, why are we even talking about performance? For casual users an Jaguar APU would be equal to an i7 3960X at 5Ghz 90% of the time. I'd go AMD if I was using the IGP simply because Intel's IGP drivers are no-where nearly as good, especially with age...The HD4200 on a motherboard I have in a cupboard? Fine, bug free too. My i5s HD4000? Fine, except it bugs out with media playback randomly. My University's X3000/X4500? (Can't remember which) Driver crashes every few minutes, requiring a restart of whatever programs were open for them to display properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

I went from AMD 1055T @ 3.8 GHz to i7-3820 @ 4.5 GHz and I don't feel the difference in everyday usage. Sure, benchmark scores are higher on 3820 ofc and I have 32 GB more RAM which I do actually need (btw 1055T can run with 32 GB just fine although its not officially supported). When I do actually slap the CPU with full load then i7-3820 is approx 30% faster with my load patterns (floating point heavy calculations) which is about the same number which exists between GFlops of the CPU's in benchmarks - once I creep up to more than 4 threads though the difference per thread gets slightly smaller as it seems the hyper threading is not quite as effective than having 6 true cores but even so i7 is still faster (which is not a surprise really, considering the age of 1055T and the clock difference).

But web browsing, gaming, opening large files - it all feels the same.

This is exactly my point...Most tasks do not need an ultra fast CPU, or are bottlenecked elsewhere most of the time.
Gaming? Most are GPU bottlenecked although a few are CPU bottlenecked.
Compression? Oddly enough, RAM speed was the bottleneck for me. (Increasing bandwidth nets the biggest gains for me)
Web browsing? HDD, or if you have an SSD, internet speed and then user.
Opening large files? HDD, or SSD.
Office? The user for most of your time.

And typically tasks that do need a fast CPU also can make use of more threads, odd that typically tasks that need more CPU time find ways to make more use of our CPUs, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Tablets are still relatively new, and x86 tablets are in their infancy. It takes time for people to figure out what their devices are capable of, especially those that don't actively seek out various capabilities in the first place, which are most consumers. Even many college students are that way, they either don't have the time or inclination to find out what their devices are capable of.

An x86 tablet may not be as good for typing documents on the go (like train or car), but is identical to a laptop if you're plugging it into a screen and keyboard. It's also superior to a laptop when it comes to pure media consumption on the go. Convertible laptops fall somewhere between traditional laptops and tablets. Different products for different needs.

Either way, modern mobile devices are powerful enough for normal computing scenarios and even basic gaming. There simply isn't a need to replace the desktop with a new desktop when one can get a laptop/tablet and have a computer on the go for nearly the same price.

But that's the thing though...Most people, in my experience, prefer having the tablet and a laptop, they have their laptop for actual work and their tablet for play because they find having it separate to be superior overall experience.
And no, an x86 tablet isn't neccessarily identical to a laptop if you plug it into a screen and keyboard...You still have the tablet part to deal and put somewhere, and if you're using the tablet screen then you have a smaller screen...Plus a good chunk of the blue-tooth tablet keyboards have sucked in my experience.
And yes, laptops have taken over the consumer market (Business ensures that desktop PCs still have ~80% of the market however) but that doesn't mean tablets will as well, or over-take laptops anytime soon...I can see them selling more often but that simply being from tablets being replaced more often than actual usage. (ie. New data plan with a new tablet for people who want 3G)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

The point is less people need that big box... before laptops were noticeably slower than equivalently priced desktop counterparts in everyday usage. Now they're virtually the same. Only in gaming and CPU intensive programs is there a significant difference.

Performance isn't everything, comfort, screen size, etc are all pretty important too.
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