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Haswell Overclocking Guide [With Statistics] - Page 1122

post #11211 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Be careful with your terminology, it can be tricky. You can't set or change the VID, that comes from a table programmed into each individual CPU by Intel. All you are changing in the BIOS is the Vcore, or the offset that is applied to the VID. Even in manual mode you aren't setting the actual VID, although I guess you could argue that you are overriding the CPU VID, which is why it shows that way in the monitoring programs, but the CPU itself is still going to have a VID that may be different from what you set.

Adaptive is different, and apparently works different in different boards, where you are supposedly using the auto VID at stock speeds and then an offset at overclocked speeds. But I don't know that it actually works that way in practice - seems more like the boards just set whatever they want.


Haswell CPU's have a number of programmed tables for VID to use, according to all the instructions it gets from the MB.
Example:
Instruction A: Vcore to Adaptive plus C-states to on in UEFI. For this sort of instruction the CPU has a programmed table that let's it go with whatever voltage it needs under the given circumstances (frequency, load and temp) and then decides in real-time the actual voltage (but it won't go to 1.4V when you set the multiplier to 47 because that voltage is not programmed in the tables).
From what i have seen on my cpu, it won't go above 1.201V on its own when on Adaptive.
Instruction B: Vcore to Manual and C-states to On. It will take the voltage you set for vcore (ex 1.250V) as the maximum it will use but still lower it when the frequency/load lowers (again, according to the programmed tables)
Instruction C: Vcore to Manual and C-states to Off. It uses the 1.250 in this example all the time (according to the tables for this sort of instruction)
All of the above Instruction Plus OFFSET - when one of the cores gets to 100% load, it ads the offset.
Etc... (there are other things that come into play, obviously)
I assume these tables differ from one cpu to the next, and they are determined through the testing process.

This is a layman's way to look at it.
post #11212 of 19539
Got a new cooler, an NH-U14S so I can finally run atleast 4.5Ghz. 10 passes of the x264 test only hit 62 degrees, though will be running it for awhile overnight even though I've already tested on my h60. The h60 would hit mid 80's to mid 90's so it's a significant change. 1.265 vcore and 1.175 uncore for 4.2Ghz.
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post #11213 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Be careful with your terminology, it can be tricky. You can't set or change the VID, that comes from a table programmed into each individual CPU by Intel. All you are changing in the BIOS is the Vcore, or the offset that is applied to the VID. Even in manual mode you aren't setting the actual VID, although I guess you could argue that you are overriding the CPU VID, which is why it shows that way in the monitoring programs, but the CPU itself is still going to have a VID that may be different from what you set.

Adaptive is different, and apparently works different in different boards, where you are supposedly using the auto VID at stock speeds and then an offset at overclocked speeds. But I don't know that it actually works that way in practice - seems more like the boards just set whatever they want.

Adaptive is controlled by the processor, not the board - all vcore/VD adjustments are internal to the processor. You give it two parameters through the BIOS, an offset and a Turbo voltage target, and the chip does the rest.

There is little technical info on the from Intel, but I note that the processor has several load-line slopes used to calculate the VID. One is specifically for "response to dynamic load increase events". Maybe that is what it uses for adaptive.
Edited by GeneO - 3/18/14 at 2:34pm
post #11214 of 19539
Adaptive is the great unknown, because it doesn't seem to work the same on every board. I don't think Gigabyte even has an Adaptive setting.
post #11215 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneO View Post


Adaptive is controlled by the processor, not the board - all vcore/VD adjustments are internal to the processor. You give it two parameters through the BIOS, an offset and a Turbo voltage target, and the chip does the rest.

There is little technical info on the from Intel, but I note that the processor has several load-line slopes used to calculate the VID. One is specifically for "response to dynamic load increase events". Maybe that is what it uses for adaptive.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Adaptive is the great unknown, because it doesn't seem to work the same on every board. I don't think Gigabyte even has an Adaptive setting.

I second Forceman. Adaptive has no functional use on MSi G45 gaming either and is completely missing from Gigabyte, where the power saving and such are controlled by other settings. In fact, the only mobo vendor I know of right now that has adaptive doing anything useful is Asus, which happens to be the mobo you have, Gene.

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post #11216 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Adaptive is the great unknown, because it doesn't seem to work the same on every board. I don't think Gigabyte even has an Adaptive setting.

I agree it varies, but it must be by processor. The FIVR controls the core voltages with load, so I don't see how the board can affect it.
Also, just because a board doesn't support adaptive voltage doesn't mean it is not available from the chip.

If you can convince me how a motherboard can control the core voltage that the Intel FIVR controls...

From the Intel Developers Forum:

http://hwbot.org/news/9347_intel_haswell_overclocking_fully_disclosed_theory_for_core_i7_4770k/

http://wccftech.com/idf-2013-intel-details-haswell-microarchitecture-overclocking-features-4th-generation-hd-graphics-core/

It clearly is Haswell from the above links.
Edited by GeneO - 3/18/14 at 3:48pm
post #11217 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneO View Post

I agree it varies, but it must be by processor. The IVR controls the core voltages, so I don't see how the board can affect it.
Also, just because a board doesn't support adaptive voltage doesn't mean it is not available from the chip.

We can change voltages at the UEFI BIOS level so why does the way Adaptive is implemented have to be done solely on the CPU? You're assuming there is no implementation level beyond the CPU.
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post #11218 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneO View Post


I agree it varies, but it must be by processor. The IVR controls the core voltages, so I don't see how the board can affect it.
Also, just because a board doesn't support adaptive voltage doesn't mean it is not available from the chip.

Everything I've seen shows it varies by board.

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post #11219 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneO View Post

Adaptive is controlled by the processor, not the board - all vcore/VD adjustments are internal to the processor. You give it two parameters through the BIOS, an offset and a Turbo voltage target, and the chip does the rest.

There is little technical info on the from Intel, but I note that the processor has several load-line slopes used to calculate the VID. One is specifically for "response to dynamic load increase events". Maybe that is what it uses for adaptive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Adaptive is the great unknown, because it doesn't seem to work the same on every board. I don't think Gigabyte even has an Adaptive setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post


I second Forceman. Adaptive has no functional use on MSi G45 gaming either and is completely missing from Gigabyte, where the power saving and such are controlled by other settings. In fact, the only mobo vendor I know of right now that has adaptive doing anything useful is Asus, which happens to be the mobo you have, Gene.

I’m on adaptive now (on asrock) because it allows me to drop the max turbo voltage (vcore) to 1.265 for the 42 multi (it allows the voltage to spike to 1.310 very rarely on x264 and only for 1 or 2 seconds) On manual i needed 1.280V.
The VID stays at 0.707 for 800MHz, 0.785V at 1400MHz and so on...

Vid on adaptive is decided by the CPU, that’s true.
I think that on the boards where there is no adaptive setting, Auto stands for it. I have both (adaptive and auto) and they both do the same thing: Adaptive

Adaptive is just an instruction for the cpu saying: do whatever you want. But if you set Adaptive plus Vcore manually (turbo max ex: 1.250V) the cpu does what it wants until it loads to 100% and/or passes 3.4 GHz and then it uses the Vcore that i set (1.250). (and when it detects AVX or synthetic tests it ads extra... ~0.050 in my case)
One of the reasons why they act differently on various boards might be that the board might change some default values (usually for auto settings) once you set it on adaptive.
post #11220 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by coelacanth View Post

We can change voltages at the UEFI BIOS level so why does the way Adaptive is implemented have to be done solely on the CPU? You're assuming there is no implementation level beyond the CPU.

From the scant information that is available...
With manual voltage you are telling the CPU not to manage the voltage and to use that one.
With all of the others, you are instructing the CPU to use the VID table (and suppose load and temperature) to determine what voltage to apply. You give it some parameters (offset, target voltage).

At least that is what the links I provided above imply and anything else I have ever uncovered.

Maybe there is more parameters that are supplied by the motherboard that aren't made available through the BIOS, but I kind of doubt it.
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