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Haswell Overclocking Guide [With Statistics] - Page 396

post #3951 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Lower uncore bottlenecks?

How low? And proof.gif
I tested all the way to stock uncore, nothing close to a bottleneck.

If one is going to trip out over 1.65v ram, then one might as well not overclock the CPU out of fear...

I stabilized the core at X45 and cache at X35. When I raised the cache to X43 I had to raise the VCore for 0.01 or 0.02 (can't remember exactly). It's also possible that I wasn't stable at X35 cache, so my practical prof is disputable.

But theoretically : When you lower cache from X43 to X35 you can see some small performance decrease. Based on that I deduct that some operations performed slower on slower uncore (a small percent of operations of course). If a operation performs slower because of low cache speed = bottleneck (bun only in rare cases).

In case of:
4,5) no evidence (no statistics)
I agree, I wasn't precise. It would be better to put it this way:
4) probably true (no statistics)
5) probably false (no evidence)
Edited by tomlev5 - 10/17/13 at 5:01am
post #3952 of 19539
Thanks for the replies guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Dropping uncore from overclocked all the way to stock manually will drop probably drop 5C max. Don't expect night and day cooldown by doing so. As I showed in my chart on the first page, the performance sacrifice is practically none. In chess, 100mhz core increase led to 3% faster calculation speed. I remember that 0.7ghz uncore change is about 0.05ghz core change. So a 1.4ghz uncore overclock will roughly be same as 3% faster at chess.

tl;dr: Uncore doesn't do much for performance.

For the second point, doubtful. Possible, but doubtful. You overclock core first and uncore second, so the point doesn't matter.

XMP adding Vcore, never heard of it. Maybe somebody else has.

Yes, some people do that as a quick benchmark of how good the CPU is. I'm not big into that because nothing tells you h ow good your CPU overclocks  like actually overclocking it. Unless you're thinking of swapping CPUs until you find a better chip. 

The 1.65v degradation is complete bogus crap, many, many members have already replied talking about how wrong that is. It's just a deluded member on the forums spreading hooey when a bazillion people have already run 1.65v and way beyond that for Sandy, Ivy, and now Haswell. When pressed for ACTUAL evidence beyond "he said she said", the member couldn't offer up anything.

Not sure about stock cooler, if you're getting the k model I'd think you'd at least get hyper evo.

Haswell's temperatures are much more reactive to voltage than clock speed.

AVX synthetic tests tend to ramp up the temps. Actually encoding x264 videos via AVX in real life doesn't really elevate temps beyond what you'd expect at all. The x264 benchmark/stress test is based more on real life encoding, and is more non-synethetic, therefore no major elevation of temps, no ridiculouos elevation of voltage like you'd see on synthetic with adaptive. 
To be safe, under 95C in stress, under 90 or 85C for daily use.

Yeah I'm getting the Evo, or the 212x ( both cost the same in my country ) but later in a couple of months or so ( better GPU and more RAM is priority ). I just wanted to get a feel for what my chip could do. I'm not the crazy kind of overclocker who will keep hunting for the perfect batch. I prefer having decent clocks at very low voltages to ensure low temps. My current 4.2Ghz OC seems decent but once I get a cooler, I'm going to see if I can do 4.6-4.8 just to test the CPU, not for daily use. Like I mentioned earlier, the max CPU usage for me right now is CSGO. However, I will start making frag movies and such with the game, so I will be rendering a wee bit. It shouldn't BSOD at that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomlev5 View Post

Based on my experience:
1) I had to raise uncore voltage at stock uncore to around 1.15 (it looks like overclocked core means more stress for the uncore), but perhaps that's because I have a bad CPU overclocker
2) Perhaps just a little bit (a decrease of 0.01 or 0.02 V - because lower uncore bottlenecks CPU in some cases)
3) I can confirm this on my Z87-A. Stock Vcore vas around 1.1. When I set XMP in UEFI with core frequency to 3800 I got 1.2 V VCore.
4,5) no evidence (no statistics)

Alright, well, I'm at stock uncore right now, and 4.2 Ghz, so I'm going to stress test and see. I had started a Prime95 blend test, but that crashed because I had attempted to run my XMP profile at 1.57v instead of the stipulated 1.65v.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Lower uncore bottlenecks?

How low? And proof.gif
I tested all the way to stock uncore, nothing close to a bottleneck.

If one is going to trip out over 1.65v ram, then one might as well not overclock the CPU out of fear...

Using IBT I get

4.2Ghz/4Ghz uncore ~90Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.8Ghz uncore ~88Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.4Ghz uncore ~86Gflops

So not that much of a noticeable difference, but a benchmark/stress test difference.
post #3953 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomlev5 View Post



But theoretically : When you lower cache from X43 to X35 you can see some small performance decrease. Based on that I deduct that some operations performed slower on slower uncore (a small percent of operations of course). If a operation performs slower because of low cache speed = bottleneck (bun only in rare cases).

 

Just trust my charts, from all the time I've spent testing. This was on CPU benchmarks as well, I even did some gaming to boot. The bottleneck isn't there. Maybe if it's below stock, but I see no gains in doing below stock uncore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanenanigans View Post

Thanks for the replies guys.
Yeah I'm getting the Evo, or the 212x ( both cost the same in my country ) but later in a couple of months or so ( better GPU and more RAM is priority ). I just wanted to get a feel for what my chip could do. I'm not the crazy kind of overclocker who will keep hunting for the perfect batch. I prefer having decent clocks at very low voltages to ensure low temps. My current 4.2Ghz OC seems decent but once I get a cooler, I'm going to see if I can do 4.6-4.8 just to test the CPU, not for daily use. Like I mentioned earlier, the max CPU usage for me right now is CSGO. However, I will start making frag movies and such with the game, so I will be rendering a wee bit. It shouldn't BSOD at that time.
Alright, well, I'm at stock uncore right now, and 4.2 Ghz, so I'm going to stress test and see. I had started a Prime95 blend test, but that crashed because I had attempted to run my XMP profile at 1.57v instead of the stipulated 1.65v.
Using IBT I get

4.2Ghz/4Ghz uncore ~90Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.8Ghz uncore ~88Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.4Ghz uncore ~86Gflops

So not that much of a noticeable difference, but a benchmark/stress test difference.

It'll be picked up in IBT and Linpack I believe. It won't translate well to chess and it pretty much won't translate at all on Cinebench and real life workloads and x264 (bench or actual normal rendering). IIRC.

 

I'd say try to hit 4.4 at least. There's a pretty good chance you'll be able to hit that without large issues. The average is 4.5/4.6 but that's only after some tweaking and such.

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post #3954 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanenanigans View Post

Using IBT I get

4.2Ghz/4Ghz uncore ~90Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.8Ghz uncore ~88Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.4Ghz uncore ~86Gflops

So not that much of a noticeable difference, but a benchmark/stress test difference.
That's what I wanted to say. It's a bottleneck where the bottle is almost as wide as the neck, but I think this is still called a bottleneck smile.gif
post #3955 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomlev5 View Post


That's what I wanted to say. It's a bottleneck where the bottle is almost as wide as the neck, but I think this is still called a bottle neck smile.gif

I think the term bottleneck is used too much. By that standard, we are almost always CPU bottlenecked in games because a much, much faster CPU will increase FPS. It's not really a bottleneck until the GPU can't even work at 100% due to the CPU flailing around. So when I use bottleneck, I'm thinking of serious issues. Otherwise, faster uncore/clock speed/ram speed/anything leads to faster performance, small or large. It's been that way forever, they are not all bottlenecks.

 

If indeed a 4.6ghz core is bottlenecked by a 4.1ghz uncore, then running 5.0ghz core and 4.1ghz uncore should lead to almost zero performance difference. That's clearly far from the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanenanigans View Post

Thanks for the replies guys.
Yeah I'm getting the Evo, or the 212x ( both cost the same in my country ) but later in a couple of months or so ( better GPU and more RAM is priority ). I just wanted to get a feel for what my chip could do. I'm not the crazy kind of overclocker who will keep hunting for the perfect batch. I prefer having decent clocks at very low voltages to ensure low temps. My current 4.2Ghz OC seems decent but once I get a cooler, I'm going to see if I can do 4.6-4.8 just to test the CPU, not for daily use. Like I mentioned earlier, the max CPU usage for me right now is CSGO. However, I will start making frag movies and such with the game, so I will be rendering a wee bit. It shouldn't BSOD at that time.
Alright, well, I'm at stock uncore right now, and 4.2 Ghz, so I'm going to stress test and see. I had started a Prime95 blend test, but that crashed because I had attempted to run my XMP profile at 1.57v instead of the stipulated 1.65v.
Using IBT I get

4.2Ghz/4Ghz uncore ~90Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.8Ghz uncore ~88Gflops
4.2Ghz/3.4Ghz uncore ~86Gflops

So not that much of a noticeable difference, but a benchmark/stress test difference.

Either way there's no problem:

Just overclock core, then when you're good, overclock uncore. You can probably get to 4.0ghz uncore easily by inputing some half-decent voltage. 1.25v maybe should be enough.


Edited by Darkwizzie - 10/17/13 at 5:17am
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post #3956 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Just overclock core, then when you're good, overclock uncore. You can probably get to 4.0ghz uncore easily by inputing some half-decent voltage. 1.25v maybe should be enough.

I'll work on a better core overclock once I get my CPU cooler. Also, you can discount my previous IBT results. I put the PC in high performance power profile, and I got 90Gflops on the High setting in IBT @ 4.2Ghz/3.8 uncore. Either way, I've hit 4.7Ghz on this chip so far so all I can say is notbad.jpg
Edited by Shanenanigans - 10/17/13 at 5:35am
post #3957 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

I think the term bottleneck is used too much. By that standard, we are almost always CPU bottlenecked in games because a much, much faster CPU will increase FPS. It's not really a bottleneck until the GPU can't even work at 100% due to the CPU flailing around. So when I use bottleneck, I'm thinking of serious issues. Otherwise, faster uncore/clock speed/ram speed/anything leads to faster performance, small or large. It's been that way forever, they are not all bottlenecks.

If indeed a 4.6ghz core is bottlenecked by a 4.1ghz uncore, then running 5.0ghz core and 4.1ghz uncore should lead to almost zero performance difference. That's clearly far from the case.

Yeah Wiz, I understand you. You are talking about serious bottlenecks that have major impact on the whole system.

I was talking about bottlenecks in general term. I found this definition on wikipedia:
"A bottleneck is a phenomenon where the performance or capacity of an entire system is limited by a single or limited number of components or resources."

By this definition the game is always bottlenecked by something (if you don't have a cap on frames per second - vsync or something...). For example:
- 60% of the time there was a bottleneck on the GPU core
- 20% of the time there was a bottleneck on the DDR5 on the GPU
- 5% of the time there was a bottleneck on the system RAM
- 13% of the time there was a bottleneck on the CPU Core
- 1% of the time there was a bottleneck on the CPU cache
- 1% of the time there was a bottleneck on the disk

Perhaps you can invent a new word. DARKbottleneck smile.gif
post #3958 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomlev5 View Post


Yeah Wiz, I understand you. You are talking about serious bottlenecks that have major impact on the whole system.

I was talking about bottlenecks in general term. I found this definition on wikipedia:
"A bottleneck is a phenomenon where the performance or capacity of an entire system is limited by a single or limited number of components or resources."

By this definition the game is always bottlenecked by something (if you don't have a cap on frames per second - vsync or something...). For example:
- 60% of the time there was a bottleneck on the GPU core
- 20% of the time there was a bottleneck on the DDR5 on the GPU
- 5% of the time there was a bottleneck on the system RAM
- 13% of the time there was a bottleneck on the CPU Core
- 1% of the time there was a bottleneck on the CPU cache
- 1% of the time there was a bottleneck on the disk

Perhaps you can invent a new word. DARKbottleneck smile.gif

Yes but the ability of the CPU to calculate faster is still primarily dependent on the core not the uncore. Core has been the largest factor the entire time from stock to overclocked to overclocked with stock uncore. You'll do much more with an extra multiplier nudge on core.

 

:drink:

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Windows 10 Pro 64bit Catleap 27 Inch 2560x1440 IPS 60hz Display Coolermaster Storm Trigger (Brown Switches) EVGA P2 1000w 
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Corsair Air 540 Logitech G Pro Tek Syndicate "Raze the World" Desk Mat O2 + Odac by Mayflower Electronics (Rev A) 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Sennheiser HD 800 2xKrk Rokit 6 G2 Blue Yeti (Grey) Rode PSA-1 Arm 
Other
Aquaero 6 LT + Aluminum Heatsink 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 6600k Delid @ 4.848/4.848 Asus z170 Hero MSI GTX 980ti @ 1499/4082 1.25v/134% Power 2 x 8gb Gskills Ripjaws V 3131 16-16-16-32 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung Pro Series 840 256gb (Celapaleis) 1 TB Samsung Drive (Pack Yak) Samsung Pro Series 850 256gb (Celapaleis Reprise) Phoenix Down (External Backup) 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Noctua D14 Kraken x61 Push-Pull for GPU Windows 10 Pro Catleap 2560x1440 @ 60hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Storm Trigger Brown Switches EVGA Supernova 1000w P2 Corsair 540 Air Razer Abyssus 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Steelseries QcK Mini Blue Yeti Microphone Objective Dac + Amp Sescom AB Switch 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Krk Rokit 6 G2 x2 Radioshack Ground Loop Isolator (For Rokits) Wooaudio Aluminum Headphone Stand Sennheiser HD 800 
AudioOther
Logitech c920 Webcam NZXT Sentry Mix 2 Fan Controller 
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post #3959 of 19539
ram xmp 1.65 !!

post #3960 of 19539
Thread Starter 

1.65 = "completely retarded" is a completely retarded statement, it's already settled.

 

Next question please. :drunken:

Undelwalt (2017)
(29 items)
 
 
Celapaleis (2013)
(16 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7600k @ 5.197/1.392 1.392v z170 Asus Hero EVGA 1080ti SC Black (2100/6250) x2 8gb GSkill Trident Z 3600 @ 3804 15-15-15-32-2T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 950 Pro 512gb (Undelwalt) WD Red 2tb (Pack Yak II) Seagate Expansion Drive 5tb (Phoenix Down II) 3x560mm HardwareLabs Nemesis GTX 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XPSC Raystorm Pro Watercool Heatkiller 1080ti Full Cover Waterblock EK XTOP Revo Dual D5 (Serial, PWM, v4) EK ZMT (1/2 - 3/4 ID OD) 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
14xEK ACF (Compression Fittings) EK x4 250 (v2) Distilled Water + PT Nuke (Copper Sulphate) 24x140mm Silent Wings 3 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Pro 64bit Catleap 27 Inch 2560x1440 IPS 60hz Display Coolermaster Storm Trigger (Brown Switches) EVGA P2 1000w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Corsair Air 540 Logitech G Pro Tek Syndicate "Raze the World" Desk Mat O2 + Odac by Mayflower Electronics (Rev A) 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Sennheiser HD 800 2xKrk Rokit 6 G2 Blue Yeti (Grey) Rode PSA-1 Arm 
Other
Aquaero 6 LT + Aluminum Heatsink 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 6600k Delid @ 4.848/4.848 Asus z170 Hero MSI GTX 980ti @ 1499/4082 1.25v/134% Power 2 x 8gb Gskills Ripjaws V 3131 16-16-16-32 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung Pro Series 840 256gb (Celapaleis) 1 TB Samsung Drive (Pack Yak) Samsung Pro Series 850 256gb (Celapaleis Reprise) Phoenix Down (External Backup) 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Noctua D14 Kraken x61 Push-Pull for GPU Windows 10 Pro Catleap 2560x1440 @ 60hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Storm Trigger Brown Switches EVGA Supernova 1000w P2 Corsair 540 Air Razer Abyssus 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Steelseries QcK Mini Blue Yeti Microphone Objective Dac + Amp Sescom AB Switch 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Krk Rokit 6 G2 x2 Radioshack Ground Loop Isolator (For Rokits) Wooaudio Aluminum Headphone Stand Sennheiser HD 800 
AudioOther
Logitech c920 Webcam NZXT Sentry Mix 2 Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
Undelwalt (2017)
(29 items)
 
 
Celapaleis (2013)
(16 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7600k @ 5.197/1.392 1.392v z170 Asus Hero EVGA 1080ti SC Black (2100/6250) x2 8gb GSkill Trident Z 3600 @ 3804 15-15-15-32-2T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 950 Pro 512gb (Undelwalt) WD Red 2tb (Pack Yak II) Seagate Expansion Drive 5tb (Phoenix Down II) 3x560mm HardwareLabs Nemesis GTX 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XPSC Raystorm Pro Watercool Heatkiller 1080ti Full Cover Waterblock EK XTOP Revo Dual D5 (Serial, PWM, v4) EK ZMT (1/2 - 3/4 ID OD) 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
14xEK ACF (Compression Fittings) EK x4 250 (v2) Distilled Water + PT Nuke (Copper Sulphate) 24x140mm Silent Wings 3 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Pro 64bit Catleap 27 Inch 2560x1440 IPS 60hz Display Coolermaster Storm Trigger (Brown Switches) EVGA P2 1000w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Corsair Air 540 Logitech G Pro Tek Syndicate "Raze the World" Desk Mat O2 + Odac by Mayflower Electronics (Rev A) 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Sennheiser HD 800 2xKrk Rokit 6 G2 Blue Yeti (Grey) Rode PSA-1 Arm 
Other
Aquaero 6 LT + Aluminum Heatsink 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 6600k Delid @ 4.848/4.848 Asus z170 Hero MSI GTX 980ti @ 1499/4082 1.25v/134% Power 2 x 8gb Gskills Ripjaws V 3131 16-16-16-32 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung Pro Series 840 256gb (Celapaleis) 1 TB Samsung Drive (Pack Yak) Samsung Pro Series 850 256gb (Celapaleis Reprise) Phoenix Down (External Backup) 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Noctua D14 Kraken x61 Push-Pull for GPU Windows 10 Pro Catleap 2560x1440 @ 60hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Storm Trigger Brown Switches EVGA Supernova 1000w P2 Corsair 540 Air Razer Abyssus 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Steelseries QcK Mini Blue Yeti Microphone Objective Dac + Amp Sescom AB Switch 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Krk Rokit 6 G2 x2 Radioshack Ground Loop Isolator (For Rokits) Wooaudio Aluminum Headphone Stand Sennheiser HD 800 
AudioOther
Logitech c920 Webcam NZXT Sentry Mix 2 Fan Controller 
  hide details  
Reply
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