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Haswell Overclocking Guide [With Statistics] - Page 488

post #4871 of 19540
Yup, no noticeable improvement on my hand while gaming, but I'm still going to mess with the uncore as long as I can stay close to the known safe value at this time which is 1.2 Not going to blow up a chip because I wanted my uncore to be in a perfect 1:1 ratio.
post #4872 of 19540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanenanigans View Post


The point you made is that vRING isn't necessary to stability if I'm not mistaken. It's crucial to overclocking, and by extension the guide as well.

I'm all up for investigating this. And I've mentioned multiple times that it improves stability. Even someone who tested earlier mentioned that his prime ran for longer with a vRING boost.

As for testing, I could be like any other prick and say x264 and all that is not really going to help see if your CPU is stable and say Prime 6+ hours is stable, but that would just be idiotic and wouldn't really be helpful to the discussion.

A few tests where you get lower results with a higher uncore isn't consistent with how the uncore should behave IMO. It is possible that you had outliers while testing which affected averages. And judging by the fact that you just dismiss Linpack and such, like what I used in the post earlier just means that you think only your tests are right.

I'm quite sure if BF4 ( as they state on the internet ) is affected by memory speeds, then it'll be affected by uncore as well. When there are simple tests and results that I show you ( not my own, because I'm a little short on time ) you want to dismiss them as overly sensitive. Then where is the progress?

And also, if there's better performance to be had from uncore, what is the added benefit to overclocking the CPU alone if it is restricted by the uncore ( like in Linpack and such ). <-- This is merely a question I'm asking, not a point I'm trying to make.

Tell me if I'm wrong or missing something.

 

'The point you made is that vRING isn't necessary to stability if I'm not mistaken. It's crucial to overclocking, and by extension the guide as well.'

vRing of course is nessesary for stability. If you're overclocking ring bus obviously we need to up the voltage, right? But that wouldn't give me any reason to add voltage to a ring bus that's at stock. I believe you said ring bus at stock may require more than stock voltages to be stable. In some cases, stock uncore stock vring is fine up until you overclock it.

 

'I'm all up for investigating this. And I've mentioned multiple times that it improves stability. Even someone who tested earlier mentioned that his prime ran for longer with a vRING boost.'

I'm not doubting the fact that you claim it improves stability.

You don't get to point to that guy for statistical reliablility man. First you go on about how my giant charts after charts of evidence of the uselessness of uncore impact on performance is potentially flawed because I didn't do enough tests (which isn't true), then you pick the guy who did one quick run of Prime? At least wait for the guy to do the tests he needs. So as it stands I have 1 quick test of Prime from one guy. That's not enough for me to take full on as fact. And I admit we might need to recommend something like, set Vring to 1.2v, ring bus to stock while overclocking core. I'm not ruling out that possibility. The only thing I actually full on disagree with you is your notion of uncore providing tangible, observable real-world increase in performance. oh, and the bottleneck.

 

'A few tests where you get lower results with a higher uncore isn't consistent with how the uncore should behave IMO.'

That's probably correct. But then there's margin of error. On chess for example, having a much lower uncore did register a visible change in the nodes calculated.

 

'It is possible that you had outliers while testing which affected averages.'

It's impossible for  a few outliers to change the entire verdict because a whole battery of tests were done. For example, if I got a ridiculous outlier for say, Cinebench, that will not affect my average result for Skyrim or Chess. If I had an outlier for each test, then that's less of a freak incident and more of just a low result.

 

'And judging by the fact that you just dismiss Linpack and such, like what I used in the post earlier just means that you think only your tests are right.'

Because my tests at least somewhat resembles a real world workload. I may be wrong on that. But you don't have to agree. If somebody manages to find multiple games where uncore observably impacts FPS, and this can be replicated by multiple people, then we've got something interesting going on. Games work too. People play games.

 

'I'm quite sure if BF4 ( as they state on the internet ) is affected by memory speeds, then it'll be affected by uncore as well. When there are simple tests and results that I show you ( not my own, because I'm a little short on time ) you want to dismiss them as overly sensitive. Then where is the progress?'

Ok, first do you agree with me that just using the benchmarks I chose at the time, you would get a result similar to mine? Or do you still think my results are hooey? Beyond that, something like encoding tests. x264 is also a benchmark. We can use that, and that is basically a real-world-usage IIRC. Also as far as I know, Linpack/SuperPi are really intensive stressers that are just about as synthetic and artificial as you can get.

 

About the BF4 memory speeds: The entire point is to conduct tests, not assume things. Granted what I quoted just now does not have you saying for sure you're right on the BF4 claim but until evidence is brought forward it's not worth anything, it's only a hunch. I'd test it myself but I don't have BF4.

 

Bear in mind, claims and speculations made without any actual testing is what spawned the 1:1 myth. So you see why I'm so skeptical.

 

'And also, if there's better performance to be had from uncore, what is the added benefit to overclocking the CPU alone if it is restricted by the uncore ( like in Linpack and such ). <-- This is merely a question I'm asking, not a point I'm trying to make.'

From everything I know and have tested, my evidence and conclusions have led me to this: The core clock is the #1 most important factor for CPU performance. Any uncore performance you can gleen will not be as large as an extra multiplier up for core. I also know that setting too high of an uncore often leads to a stifled core overclock. Therefore it makes sense to overclock core, then uncore. I picked up not major difference in performance improvements from uncore regardless of how much slower your uncore is to your core. 

 

There is absolutely no 'bottleneck'. Bottleneck is a strong word. Bottleneck doesn't mean having a higher uncore leads to higher performance. Bottleneck would mean something closer to, until you raise your uncore, you can set you core to 50000ghz and you won't get an ounce of improvement. Or barely any improvement. This can easily be proven; simply run stock uncore. Bench 4.0ghz @ Cinebench. Bench 4.3. Bench 4.5. Bench 4.7. Bench 5.0. You will see a noticeable performance increase even though uncore has not been touched. Bottleneck disproved.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameyscott View Post

Yup, no noticeable improvement on my hand while gaming, but I'm still going to mess with the uncore as long as I can stay close to the known safe value at this time which is 1.2 Not going to blow up a chip because I wanted my uncore to be in a perfect 1:1 ratio.
Now let's wait for Forceman to come alive again and back me up.

Edited by Darkwizzie - 11/2/13 at 1:21am
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post #4873 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameyscott View Post

You owe me one of those. tongue.gif

On that chip? Well done man, congrats!smile.gif

proof.gif

biggrin.gif
post #4874 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug2507 View Post

On that chip? Well done man, congrats!smile.gif

proof.gif

biggrin.gif

I'm still working on 4.8Ghz. The scaling on my chip suggest I will need at least 1.37v for it, but it doesn't last long on X264 with that voltage.
post #4875 of 19540
I'm not going to get into the whole uncore debate right now as just skimming over the posts before a morning coffee has done my head in already.

Uncore voltage - 1.2vring is conservative and remember is induces a lot less heat than core. FYI i've been running mine up to 1.4v for benching which takes me nicely onto uncore speed. Uncore does make a difference to the overall running of things but it's very much dependant on application. For some benches i run it as high as i can (x49) and for others i just leave it dropped although x48 i use for most as anything higher requires a good jump in vring.

The mention/quote of a user doing 30 secs with very low voltage on uncore then whatever it was after more stable at a higher voltage, what was the uncore multi? With regards to vring helping core stability, i don't find that to be true for myself. I left vring/uncore at 1.15v/x34 the whole time for taking core up to x50, never touched them once. The main two voltages i adjusted were core & vrin, nothing else till i got into the high clocks and had to have a play about with SA/IOD.

I'll come back once i've woken up.thumb.gif
post #4876 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameyscott View Post

I'm still working on 4.8Ghz. The scaling on my chip suggest I will need at least 1.37v for it, but it doesn't last long on X264 with that voltage.

I thought i said i bet you a 780 that chip wouldn't do 5.0ghz stable??

edit - what did you take your vrin up to?
post #4877 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug2507 View Post

I'm not going to get into the whole uncore debate right now as just skimming over the posts before a morning coffee has done my head in already.

Uncore voltage - 1.2vring is conservative and remember is induces a lot less heat than core. FYI i've been running mine up to 1.4v for benching which takes me nicely onto uncore speed. Uncore does make a difference to the overall running of things but it's very much dependant on application. For some benches i run it as high as i can (x49) and for others i just leave it dropped although x48 i use for most as anything higher requires a good jump in vring.

The mention/quote of a user doing 30 secs with very low voltage on uncore then whatever it was after more stable at a higher voltage, what was the uncore multi? With regards to vring helping core stability, i don't find that to be true for myself. I left vring/uncore at 1.15v/x34 the whole time for taking core up to x50, never touched them once. The main two voltages i adjusted were core & vrin, nothing else till i got into the high clocks and had to have a play about with SA/IOD.

I'll come back once i've woken up.thumb.gif

Any info you could write about sa/iod etc would be appreciated, seems my chip might require them when pushed
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post #4878 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug2507 View Post

I thought i said i bet you a 780 that chip wouldn't do 5.0ghz stable??

edit - what did you take your vrin up to?

You did! And currently at 2.05 VRIN IIRC. I don't remember since I got fed up with x124 after x124. My temps were spiking up to 85C, and I figured I'd just wait to work on it until the loop is up and running to continue.
post #4879 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Any info you could write about sa/iod etc would be appreciated, seems my chip might require them when pushed

Will do bud, busy weekend with relatives (fun :roll eyes: ) so i'll post some info on Monday. In fact i'll post a screen in a bit of my 50x44 folder to give an idea of what i do. It's got a handful of ss's being a work in progress. Everything i get stable, i empty the folder only leave stability pass & benches in it. I'll take a screen of the 50x43 as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameyscott View Post

You did! And currently at 2.05 VRIN IIRC. I don't remember since I got fed up with x124 after x124. My temps were spiking up to 85C, and I figured I'd just wait to work on it until the loop is up and running to continue.

124? Lol, i know the feeling!
post #4880 of 19540
This is what i end up with whilst testing stability.....

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