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Haswell Overclocking Guide [With Statistics] - Page 629

post #6281 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

What I am saying is, after the second post I checked out. I read the first two posts as brusque and meant to offend. So after the second post I responded accordingly. If you wrote the first two posts purely to save time or something, no offense originally intended then you are right, this is mostly a misunderstanding. Otherwise, no. But I've re-read the first two posts and I still assume it to be brusque. If I assumed at the time, that the first two comments were an extreme attempt to save time to the point you can't even explain why exactly I was wrong, then this conversation wouldn't come to this. But honestly, if I am totally off base then do explain to me why instead of just saying I'm wrong.

 

Back to the performance issue: My stance doesn't change: A 20% advantage with same exact clock speed across Sandy vs Haswell doesn't surprise me. A 20% winning margin of an OCed Sandy vs Haswell DOES interest me.

 

 

Now who's too easily offended? tonguesmiley.gif

 

 

 

 

Looks like even over clocked, Haswell is faster. This is old news though and follows along with the focus that at the same clock speed Haswell is faster. If it's faster at the same clock speed, and you OC both by 1GHz, it is still faster despite being over clocked. However at max stability, it's still faster than Sandy according to this.

 

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/intel_core_i7_4770k/8.htm

 

Cinebench 11.5 Stock = 13% increase

Cinebench 11.5 OC = 6% increase

 

Overclocked, the stable speed for Sandy was 249Mhz above Haswell, but Haswell still won. That's just one example since I am really lazy and don't want to do the rest of the math right now. If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll probably put together an excel chart or something at some point because I love information gathering.

 

Edit: PC Mark showed something interesting. OC'd Haswell's performance increase nearly DOUBLED vs stock. OC increase was 22%, stock was 12.8%


Edited by whiteironknuckle - 11/30/13 at 11:30pm
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post #6282 of 19539
Cmon guys, stop flooding the thread! wink.gif
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post #6283 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteironknuckle View Post
 

 

Now who's too easily offended? tonguesmiley.gif

 

 

 

 

Looks like even over clocked, Haswell is faster. This is old news though and follows along with the focus that at the same clock speed Haswell is faster. If it's faster at the same clock speed, and you OC both by 1GHz, it is still faster despite being over clocked. However at max stability, it's still faster than Sandy according to this.

 

http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/intel_core_i7_4770k/8.htm

 

Cinebench 11.5 Stock = 13% increase

Cinebench 11.5 OC = 6% increase

 

Overclocked, the stable speed for Sandy was 249Mhz above Haswell, but Haswell still won. That's just one example since I am really lazy and don't want to do the rest of the math right now. If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll probably put together an excel chart or something at some point because I love information gathering.

 

Edit: PC Mark showed something interesting. OC'd Haswell's performance increase nearly DOUBLED vs stock. OC increase was 22%, stock was 12.8%

Fine, if you're willing to call it a misunderstanding, so will I. That's all there is to it then. So let's drop this.

 

I agree with you that overclocked Haswell will beat overclocked Sandy on average. The problem is the 20% figure. A 20% figure is higher than what I expect. That is why it met my skepticism.

 

At the risk of repeating myself and looking like a robot, I will completely list what I feel about this: A stock Sandy is beaten by a stock Haswell. Same applies to Sandy/Haswell with both at the same frequency. This includes both being 3.5 or 4.5ghz. But what I'm expecting is for Sandy to have higher clocks on average, and that lowering Haswell's large lead. Lowering, but not enough defeat a Haswell by any means. While theoretically, it's best if we compared average OCed Sandy performance vs average OCed Haswell performance, the gnarly part becomes what 'average OC' actually is. Both HWbot and my chart point to the average Haswell OC to be 4.5ghz. I didn't make a Sandy Bridge OC chart, so I can only rely on HWBot's average Sandy OC, which (IIRC) you said is above what is typically achievable. That would mean HWbot has solid statistics on Haswell but bad statistics on Sandy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Cmon guys, stop flooding the thread! wink.gif
We're actually moving on to the OC performance issue.
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post #6284 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImJJames View Post

Is there any point in leaving power saving modes ON for CPU if vcore is set on manual fix voltage?

I really don't think so. If having cstates on (power saving features) on, it just conflicts. You want to save power, but can't due to the fixed clock speed you set. With mine, I had to set the core to adaptive in order for it to down clock while not under load.
post #6285 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty Mac View Post


Yeah... Being a noob to OC'ing (to this extent) I'm just paranoid about going over the 1.30v. Currently I'm at 1.240v @ 4.3ghz. I haven't posted my stuff yet, because as I posted the other day.. I got a random x124 with doing minimal work. Been fine since tho. I haven't even touched the uncore yet. Right now.. running on dynamic core mode, with adaptive voltage (which kicked the uncore up to x38) also on adaptive voltage. Another reason I haven't posted smile.gif I'll post when I finally get this all down. Here's a question tho. If I do the uncore now.. would I have to change it back to where I had it (x33 @ 1.150v) after upping the core multi?

TBH, didn't really get your question. All you have to do is overclock your uncore like you do your core. With the constraints of not being able to change core settings while you OC uncore, of course.

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post #6286 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post
 

Fine, if you're willing to call it a misunderstanding, so will I. That's all there is to it then. So let's drop this.

 

I agree with you that overclocked Haswell will beat overclocked Sandy on average. The problem is the 20% figure. A 20% figure is higher than what I expect. That is why it met my skepticism.

 

At the risk of repeating myself and looking like a robot, I will completely list what I feel about this: A stock Sandy is beaten by a stock Haswell. Same applies to Sandy/Haswell with both at the same frequency. This includes both being 3.5 or 4.5ghz. But what I'm expecting is for Sandy to have higher clocks on average, and that lowering Haswell's large lead. Lowering, but not enough defeat a Haswell by any means. While theoretically, it's best if we compared average OCed Sandy performance vs average OCed Haswell performance, the gnarly part becomes what 'average OC' actually is. Both HWbot and my chart point to the average Haswell OC to be 4.5ghz. I didn't make a Sandy Bridge OC chart, so I can only rely on HWBot's average Sandy OC, which (IIRC) you said is above what is typically achievable. That would mean HWbot has solid statistics on Haswell but bad statistics on Sandy.

 

The bottom line is it's a variable. One could RMA a bad Haswell chip for a better one and ultimately beat out Sandy performance. For those currently on Sandy, to reach speed levels that would surpass what Haswell is likely to achieve, the increase would require a water cooling system. In this scenario, say it is a person who does not have water cooling and is thinking about what to do to get performance increases. They could do an expensive water cooling rig (hundreds of dollars) to achieve a difference Haswell can't beat (IF their card is stable enough to handle it), or get Haswell and gain a performance at the same clock speeds they have always used.

 

These facts back up my personal reasons for not regretting a move to Haswell. Price for value might not be the best, but I think about it like this: 

 

Once you are up to high end computer components, more money will net you less of an upgrade either way. It's sort of like high end cars, or televisions. For some, even a 10% increase in performance could be the difference between spending the next year bottlenecking while waiting for the next e-atx to be announced, or being able to do things comfortably to stave off the next upgrade. The difference matters more than the price. The price may not directly correlate with the performance increase, but bottlenecking is bottlenecking. $300 Haswell + $200 1150 motherboard is still ultimately cheaper than $550 on extended ivy (iirc sandy extended costs the same as extended ivy) plus $250+ on an e-atx motherboard (and this is assuming your case can handle e-atx) if the intention is to stave off until the next release without breaking bank. 

 

 

 There are people who will spend thousands of dollars on car tune-ups and modifications just for an extra 15% increase in horsepower. ​There are people out there that own Sony's $25,000 4K 80" television and aren't millionaires. 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Cmon guys, stop flooding the thread! wink.gif

 I apologize for congesting the thread, sir. :blushsmil 

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post #6287 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteironknuckle View Post

The bottom line is it's a variable. One could RMA a bad Haswell chip for a better one and ultimately beat out Sandy performance. For those currently on Sandy, to reach speed levels that would surpass what Haswell is likely to achieve, the increase would require a water cooling system. In this scenario, say it is a person who does not have water cooling and is thinking about what to do to get performance increases. They could do an expensive water cooling rig (hundreds of dollars) to achieve a difference Haswell can't beat (IF their card is stable enough to handle it), or get Haswell and gain a performance at the same clock speeds they have always used.

 

These facts back up my personal reasons for not regretting a move to Haswell. Price for value might not be the best, but I think about it like this: 

 

Once you are up to high end computer components, more money will net you less of an upgrade either way. It's sort of like high end cars, or televisions. For some, even a 10% increase in performance could be the difference between spending the next year bottlenecking while waiting for the next e-atx to be announced, or being able to do things comfortably to stave off the next upgrade. The difference matters more than the price. The price may not directly correlate with the performance increase, but bottlenecking is bottlenecking. $300 Haswell + $200 1150 motherboard is still ultimately cheaper than $550 on extended ivy (iirc sandy extended costs the same as extended ivy) plus $250+ on an e-atx motherboard (and this is assuming your case can handle e-atx) if the intention is to stave off until the next release without breaking bank. 

 

 

 There are people who will spend thousands of dollars on car tune-ups and modifications just for an extra 15% increase in horsepower.

Yes, you can RMA a bad Haswell for a better one and beat out Sandy for sure. But you can do the same with Sandy. Granted there are limits to this for Sandy. But I am already recommending a Haswell over a Sandy when it comes to a new upgrade. But all this would mean RMA-ing chips, spending money on a better cooling solution (if you don't have a really good one already), etc, for some performance gain. All that time and effort and money builds up, until I'd rather just get Ivy E and be done with it. I think most people who want to go for broke with CPU performance would pick Ivy E instead of Haswell.

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post #6288 of 19539
Sandy bridge didn't clock 5ghz easily on air, some samples sure - then again, Doug is at 5.1ghz on Haswell on air.

If you give sandy a 10% frequency advantage, Haswell is still ~15% faster in x264, and roundabouts 10% faster in a lot of other stuff.
Quote:
I think most people who want to go for broke with CPU performance would pick Ivy E instead of Haswell.

That means giving up your frequency advantage - you're back to >7-15% defecits in ipc (gaming/random stuff + x264)

For streaming Starcraft 2, the 4770k is significantly better than a 4930k, max oc vs max oc
Edited by Cyro999 - 12/1/13 at 12:20am
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post #6289 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Sandy bridge didn't clock 5ghz easily on air, some samples sure - then again, Doug is at 5.1ghz on Haswell on air.

If you give sandy a 10% frequency advantage, Haswell is still ~15% faster in x264, and roundabouts 10% faster in a lot of other stuff.
That means giving up your frequency advantage - you're back to >15% defecits in ipc.

For streaming Starcraft 2, the 4770k is significantly better than a 4930k, max oc vs max oc

If you really need the powerful cores, I suppose. But I think for future proofing purposes, I think Ivy E would be better. Well, at least for me, because I'm doing chess. :devil:

If you want 10-15% performance and you are willing to pay up and deal with the issues with OCing Haswell/etc, then sure.

 

But again, I'm not too impressed with a 10-15% performance increase over two CPU generations. It's better but doesn't wow me.

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Samsung 950 Pro 512gb (Undelwalt) WD Red 2tb (Pack Yak II) Seagate Expansion Drive 5tb (Phoenix Down II) 3x560mm HardwareLabs Nemesis GTX 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
XPSC Raystorm Pro Watercool Heatkiller 1080ti Full Cover Waterblock EK XTOP Revo Dual D5 (Serial, PWM, v4) EK ZMT (1/2 - 3/4 ID OD) 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
14xEK ACF (Compression Fittings) EK x4 250 (v2) Distilled Water + PT Nuke (Copper Sulphate) 24x140mm Silent Wings 3 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Pro 64bit Catleap 27 Inch 2560x1440 IPS 60hz Display Coolermaster Storm Trigger (Brown Switches) EVGA P2 1000w 
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post #6290 of 19539

If I wanted raw performance and didn't care about being outdated within a year, I'd buy something a lot more expensive than Ivy-E. I'd go straight for a dual E7-8830 setup. 

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