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Haswell Overclocking Guide [With Statistics] - Page 699

post #6981 of 19539
Quote:
The reason your temps aren't breaking 80C with 1.35v is because you're using HWInfo64 to monitor core temperatures. HWInfo64 underestimates core temperatures by roughly 10C (in my experience). A much better estimate of core temperatures can be provided by HWMonitor.

What? This is news to everyone if it's true, i've been taking temperatures from three programs (one of them hwinfo) and they all report the same numbers

As for above: Make sure that AVX is working properly on your system. Intelburntest 2.54 will show >100gflops if it is. Temps are far hotter in small FFT than large (which you are testing in the shot) and prime won't be at too pleasant temps with 1.35vcore even without HT - 100c peaks wouldn't surprise me

Close to 1.35 max voltage with HT off isn't too surprising, if you look at temps for normal use etc. That's like running ~1.27v on a 4770k in terms of temps under a normal high threaded load, it's about max you can do reasonably with this kind of cooling though
Edited by Cyro999 - 12/17/13 at 9:02am
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post #6982 of 19539
Woah, for real? HWInfo64 consistently underestimated my temps before delidding. Both stock and overclocked. I figured this was the same for everyone???? I'm pretty sure I even asked as I was starting out about the difference between HWI and [everything else] and I was told HWI underestimates core sensor readings? :/
post #6983 of 19539
Nothing like coretemp or realtemp
post #6984 of 19539
Coretemp since it's most recent update has been reporting temps accurately for me.
post #6985 of 19539
Just because I like to troll 4400mHz @ 1.355V: 40 Celsius max


Edited by Wihglah - 12/17/13 at 10:26am
post #6986 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

A diversity of opinion doesn't mean there isn't a right answer. There is a diversity of opinion on whether astrology is valid or not, doesn't give any merit to astrology. JJ from Asus has his own opinions. and everybody that follows his guide typically shares his opinion. There is diversity of opinion on Prime95 as well, since JJ said it's not 'certified' for Haswell. There is a lot of diversity of opinion. But that's irrelevant, I stick to hard data when I can. Every single person I've met that goes on and on about some bottleneck also have a striking tendency to show no evidence.

Resorting to exaggeration and hyperbole again doesn't help your position, it's in the Top Ten of things not to do in any debate. Saying that there is diversity of opinion with astrology pure hyperbole ...might as well add global warming, bigfoot and evolution to the list ..... in each instance there exists is a preponderance of evidence on once side and the 99%+ on the other gives no credence to the "the fringe". That is certainly not the case here. While one can certainly feel confident in their own data, ignoring other data I think is a bit myopic and certainly not objective. JJ tested over 1,000 CPUs in and I don't think your data is statistically significant in comparison just to his alone.....let alone the rest of the community. And ..... If there is an agreed right answer, there is no diversity of opinion. Someone saying 2 + 2 = 5 does not constitute a diversity of opinion.
Quote:
Now, I don't know what  AutoDesk is. If AutoDesk is some application you use all the time on your machine, that's one thing. But unless you're going to knock me for my own results being flat out invalid, I've demonstrated for all the benchmarks/applications I used that uncore won't matter as much as core pretty much ever. And, even if indeed it is true that AutoDesk is something you use often and rely on, it doesn't prove 1:1 Cache ratio or the uncore being 3 under core bottleneck are valid. To demonstrate those claims, you have to demonstrate the performance taking a nosedive or giant speedup at the specified points. And no proof yet either that AutoDesk is indeed super uncore sensitive.

That first sentence in itself is more than telling than your realize. If you are going to make such a claim, I think ya need to broaden your horizons. Look at Tomshardware's testing ....I knock THG alot but even they include several AutoDesk products in their testing. Autodesk is the premier provider of CAD / Rendering programs in the market (AutoCAD, 3DsMax, Maya, Inventor, Revit, etc) with over 98% market penetration. If someone's buying a $16k box, it's likely to be running AutoDesk poducts.

I am not knocking your data in any way ...you simply took strong objection to my posting of a source whose conclusions are different then your own. I'm commenting as to the extrapolation that the small narrow banded list of programs you used is somehow representative of overall system performance under all situations. You have not proved, nor even approached the breadth of study, that would be required to make such a claim. I accept that you have proved, or better said "confirmed", that by lowering cache ratio you can get higher CPU multipliers and show no negative effects running CPU benchmarks.

I don't have a hypothesis in play...I have nothing to prove. I don't have the resources nor time to test 1000s of CPUs on various hardware with varying programs (an yes including outside of CPU benchmarks). What I am saying is that the claim that uncore, or more accurately cache ratio on Haswell, has no effect on system performance is 1) unproven and 2) not universally accepted. When an issue is contested, with a recognized difference of opinion, I look at the resume and the resources available to the proponents and make a decision as to which way I am gonna go. I'm perfectly content to lead forum readers look at your data and look at JJs and others data and draw their own conclusions. Arguing that only your data is relevant and anyone else's is not presents obvious objectivity concerns.
Quote:
But for your original post to have merit, the app that is affected by uncore greatly needs to be something most people use. And most people don't use AutoDesk. So you're going to have to pick application(s) which most people probably use that is/are strongly affected by uncore. Otherwise you'd be talking about a niche program as Cyro mentioned. I'm sure we can design a benchmark that is specifically designed to detect uncore changes above all else, but that doesn't mean much if real world programs don't represent that level of sensitivity to uncore change. Chess and x264, well, those are the two standard CPU benchmarks as far as I'm concerned. Rendering videos and brute force calculation, that's the most common intensive CPU use I think most people run into.

A CPU benchmark is just that ... it's a "CPU" as in "exclusive of other subsystems" benchmark. And what else are you doing at the time .... how i s the benchmark affected when Av program starts its scan ?, what happens when the backup runs ? How will it affect my RAM disk operation ? How is background downloading / cloud communication affected ? How will it handle huge memory swaps as in say a wire frame rotation ? What about huge spreadsheets and database manipulation ?

But, as with my many times repeated question on what % of CPUs reach 46 CPU multiplier at native cache ratio, you still haven't answered the most basic question. If lowering cache ratio to the lowest possible level has no effect on system performance and allows for increased CPU performance, then why doesn't every MoBo BIOS default to the lowest possible selection ? Why would every MoBo manufacturer not put their "best foot forward" and intentionally "gimp" their products ?
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post #6987 of 19539
Quote:
If lowering cache ratio to the lowest possible level has no effect on system performance and allows for increased CPU performance, then why doesn't every MoBo BIOS default to the lowest possible selection ? Why would every MoBo manufacturer not put their "best foot forward" and intentionally "gimp" their products ?

We're not lowering cache ratio to improve core overclockability. We're leaving it at stock -while overclocking the core- so as to change only one variable at a time, and then overclocking uncore/cache afterwards. It's MUCH harder to overclock if you change 3-5 variables at a time like a lot of people go to do than it is if you tightly control stuff, change one thing at a time and write everything down

As for actual performance gains from having uncore higher; if you think you have a program that might benefit from it, benchmark it somehow to show a difference or just use higher uncore/cache ratio when you're done overclocking the core - i've found RAM to be more influential on my programs (a couple of cpu bound games, x264, cinebench etc) than uncore, where i've seen at best around 0.5-1% performance gain between 3.4ghz and 4.4, but i don't use Autodesk programs.
Quote:
But, as with my many times repeated question on what % of CPUs reach 46 CPU multiplier at native cache ratio, you still haven't answered the most basic question.

I think most of them, but nobody really bothers because you can either use something like 8x idle / 40x load uncore with 1.18 ring (my cpu) or try for example 46x 24/7 at 1.3 ring, which doesn't drop and also makes your performance per watt notably worse in every case i've seen - if i was so bothered for performance i'd go up 100mhz or 200mhz more on the core and it would help significantly more in everything that i have benchmarked, i can do it, i just don't like the temps.
Edited by Cyro999 - 12/17/13 at 10:34am
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post #6988 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Ty for temp results Darkwizzie! What kinda ambients did you have? (10c or 30c)

15C ish.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post


What? This is news to everyone if it's true, i've been taking temperatures from three programs (one of them hwinfo) and they all report the same numbers

As for above: Make sure that AVX is working properly on your system. Intelburntest 2.54 will show >100gflops if it is. Temps are far hotter in small FFT than large (which you are testing in the shot) and prime won't be at too pleasant temps with 1.35vcore even without HT - 100c peaks wouldn't surprise me

Close to 1.35 max voltage with HT off isn't too surprising, if you look at temps for normal use etc. That's like running ~1.27v on a 4770k in terms of temps under a normal high threaded load, it's about max you can do reasonably with this kind of cooling though

Just measured with both, I got pretty much the same exact result with HWinfo vs Newest Coretemp.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeneerVent View Post

I appear to be getting ignored in the VI Hero thread, so I will post my question here.
It is mentioned in the original post of this thread.
It is indeed, eventual input voltage.

Edited by Darkwizzie - 12/17/13 at 10:59am
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post #6989 of 19539
Since i usually have realtemp and hwinfo open (for easy live display and also averages) i tested again and saw same temps once again (on z87x-ud3h)
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post #6990 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

-

About AutoDesk: I don't think so, if I get a $1600 machine it is to game. This is the first time I've heard of AutoDesk, so either everybody is using it without ever talking about it, or I live in the Arctic.

 

The hyperbole comment is only relevant if you have evidence, so let's see:

 

Overlockers page: Don't visit a website as an end-all source of info man. I recall hearing Anandtech having a ridiculous overclocking guide for Haswell as well, where they ended up praising a cheaper mobo because they tweaked a setting they thought didn't have an effect on one motherboard without doing it on another. Aka input voltage. Haswell is different than old CPUs, there is more to it than that. Everybody seems to be under a time constraint with articles/companies, they just listen to what they are told, that uncore matters. 

 

ROG page: You went on about diversity of opinion and you pick a page with 5 people?

 

In both cases, there is ZERO EVIDENCE, only an authority saying that something is so. Just a guy saying it's so isn't evidence. Benchmarks are evidence. This is what I'm saying: People that say uncore is super duper important have a tendency to show no benchmarks. Do you think, if Overclock page had done the tests for uncore, that they'd ignore the data and just sum it up with a one liner? No. Once you have the data, putting up a fancy chart to make yourself look more credible is 5 minutes away.

 

Time and time again, community threads get it more right than computer authorities, because we have evidence, we have a community that tests things, and the way we do things are pretty transparent. Did Anandtech or Overclock pages both test many, many CPUs and benchmark them for uncore performance change and then decide not to show their testing? No. JJ says lots of testing have been done but at this point I'm skeptical. That, or there's some crappy management going on over there. When was the last time you got the details on delidding from JJ? Did he even mention the problem requiring a delid? No. Even Linus, nothing on delid, just that he thinks it's stupid. Do not rely on in depth OC advice from them. JJ from Asus gave out more than one off-the-mark bits of advice. You act as if I am saying JJ gave out wrong advice on purpose. That would mean they are gimping their own product. No, I just think he's mislead. Accidents happen. I'm sure JJ has a busy schedule and CPU fiddling isn't his official job description. This is an example of why the 1:1 myth remains. Everybody is so inclined to believe things from authority and then not do tests and just assume it's all been done for you. But I didn't take it on face value and tested it to ensure things are as they say. And I discovered otherwise. And that is why this thread is as big as it is today.

---

 

 

You're left with a few options:

 

a) Say that my benchmark results are wrong and prove it by your own benchmarks verified by community members

 

b) Say that I missed one killer app that benefits greatly from uncore, which still subjects you to evidence and community testing but also doesn't prove uncore is by large important

 

c) Say my benchmark results are right, but the ones I picked do not reflect any sort of real-life usage of a CPU.

 

 

I tire of this discussion. I know you mean well, but unless you're ready to proceed in one of the above three ways, I'm not responding to this any further.


Edited by Darkwizzie - 12/17/13 at 11:18am
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Windows 10 Pro 64bit Catleap 27 Inch 2560x1440 IPS 60hz Display Coolermaster Storm Trigger (Brown Switches) EVGA P2 1000w 
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Corsair Air 540 Logitech G Pro Tek Syndicate "Raze the World" Desk Mat O2 + Odac by Mayflower Electronics (Rev A) 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Sennheiser HD 800 2xKrk Rokit 6 G2 Blue Yeti (Grey) Rode PSA-1 Arm 
Other
Aquaero 6 LT + Aluminum Heatsink 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 6600k Delid @ 4.848/4.848 Asus z170 Hero MSI GTX 980ti @ 1499/4082 1.25v/134% Power 2 x 8gb Gskills Ripjaws V 3131 16-16-16-32 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Samsung Pro Series 840 256gb (Celapaleis) 1 TB Samsung Drive (Pack Yak) Samsung Pro Series 850 256gb (Celapaleis Reprise) Phoenix Down (External Backup) 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Noctua D14 Kraken x61 Push-Pull for GPU Windows 10 Pro Catleap 2560x1440 @ 60hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
CM Storm Trigger Brown Switches EVGA Supernova 1000w P2 Corsair 540 Air Razer Abyssus 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Steelseries QcK Mini Blue Yeti Microphone Objective Dac + Amp Sescom AB Switch 
AudioAudioAudioAudio
Krk Rokit 6 G2 x2 Radioshack Ground Loop Isolator (For Rokits) Wooaudio Aluminum Headphone Stand Sennheiser HD 800 
AudioOther
Logitech c920 Webcam NZXT Sentry Mix 2 Fan Controller 
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