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Haswell Overclocking Guide [With Statistics] - Page 700

post #6991 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

Resorting to exaggeration and hyperbole again doesn't help your position, it's in the Top Ten of things not to do in any debate. Saying that there is diversity of opinion with astrology pure hyperbole ...might as well add global warming, bigfoot and evolution to the list ..... in each instance there exists is a preponderance of evidence on once side and the 99%+ on the other gives no credence to the "the fringe". That is certainly not the case here. While one can certainly feel confident in their own data, ignoring other data I think is a bit myopic and certainly not objective. JJ tested over 1,000 CPUs in and I don't think your data is statistically significant in comparison just to his alone.....let alone the rest of the community. And ..... If there is an agreed right answer, there is no diversity of opinion. Someone saying 2 + 2 = 5 does not constitute a diversity of opinion.
That first sentence in itself is more than telling than your realize. If you are going to make such a claim, I think ya need to broaden your horizons. Look at Tomshardware's testing ....I knock THG alot but even they include several AutoDesk products in their testing. Autodesk is the premier provider of CAD / Rendering programs in the market (AutoCAD, 3DsMax, Maya, Inventor, Revit, etc) with over 98% market penetration. If someone's buying a $16k box, it's likely to be running AutoDesk poducts.

I am not knocking your data in any way ...you simply took strong objection to my posting of a source whose conclusions are different then your own. I'm commenting as to the extrapolation that the small narrow banded list of programs you used is somehow representative of overall system performance under all situations. You have not proved, nor even approached the breadth of study, that would be required to make such a claim. I accept that you have proved, or better said "confirmed", that by lowering cache ratio you can get higher CPU multipliers and show no negative effects running CPU benchmarks.

I don't have a hypothesis in play...I have nothing to prove. I don't have the resources nor time to test 1000s of CPUs on various hardware with varying programs (an yes including outside of CPU benchmarks). What I am saying is that the claim that uncore, or more accurately cache ratio on Haswell, has no effect on system performance is 1) unproven and 2) not universally accepted. When an issue is contested, with a recognized difference of opinion, I look at the resume and the resources available to the proponents and make a decision as to which way I am gonna go. I'm perfectly content to lead forum readers look at your data and look at JJs and others data and draw their own conclusions. Arguing that only your data is relevant and anyone else's is not presents obvious objectivity concerns.

A CPU benchmark is just that ... it's a "CPU" as in "exclusive of other subsystems" benchmark. And what else are you doing at the time .... how i s the benchmark affected when Av program starts its scan ?, what happens when the backup runs ? How will it affect my RAM disk operation ? How is background downloading / cloud communication affected ? How will it handle huge memory swaps as in say a wire frame rotation ? What about huge spreadsheets and database manipulation ?

But, as with my many times repeated question on what % of CPUs reach 46 CPU multiplier at native cache ratio, you still haven't answered the most basic question. If lowering cache ratio to the lowest possible level has no effect on system performance and allows for increased CPU performance, then why doesn't every MoBo BIOS default to the lowest possible selection ? Why would every MoBo manufacturer not put their "best foot forward" and intentionally "gimp" their products ?

That's certainly a wall of text for "having nothing to prove".....biggrin.gif
post #6992 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

JJ from Asus gave out more than one off-the-mark bits of advice. You act as if I am saying JJ gave out wrong advice on purpose. That would mean they are gimping their own product. No, I just think he's mislead.

About AutoDesk: I don't think so, if I get a $1600 machine it is to game.

You need to think more clearly and if you are going to quote my statements and then contradict them, focus on what I actually write. 16k = $16,000 not $1,600 ...please stop rearranging my posts and inserting misquotes to provide phantom support for your next argument.
Quote:
This is the first time I've heard of AutoDesk, so either everybody is using it without ever talking about it, or I live in the Arctic.

Well it's not a gaming company. It's a $2.7 billion a year software company Adobe is about $4 billion a year to provide some comparison.... they don't make games tho they do make game development tools. Ever hear of professional graphics or workstation cards like the Quadro ? Autodesk is why they make Quadro

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-titan-opencl-cuda-workstation,3474-2.html
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2864/8
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/autodesk-gameware-software-cad,21775.html

Quote:
About the evidence: You write all about hyperbole. Yet all you do is make claims without evidence. Let's take a look at your 'evidence':

I just commented on your repeated use of it and that it doesn't help the argument.

I have made no claims .... I claim to make no claims ..... my only comments are as follows:

1. There is not universal agreement on your claim that reducing cache ratio has no effect.

2. The breadth of your investigation and limitation to single task, CPU benchmarks is woefully insufficient to prove that this change has no effect of overall system performance. The scope of your testing is far too limited.

3. Your data is no more relevant than anyone else's.

Yes, you have confirmed that if you reduce cache ratio you can get get higher CPU multipliers. This is well known But your focus on CPU benchmarks to the exclusion of all else seems solely guided by a desire to record higher clocks. As in the alternate BIOS for the GFX cards, getting higher clocks w/o those clocks bringing higher performance in every day tasks seems to me of little value. Now, yes I understand that your "every day" involves running and re-running lots of benchmarks. But many of us are just looking to reduce the time it takes to accomplish work tasks .... in my case, these are production units and that's how I make my living. Any time I invest in evaluating, testing, tweaking to get this performance must be subtracted from the performance gain and rarely is there a positive result. So before I embark on such an effort I need more data over a wider breadth of scenarios than you have attempted. The FDA doesn't declare a new product free from possible drug interaction because it was tested with aspirin, tylenol, excedrin and advil. Not only does that leave thousands of possible interactions uninvestigated, they are all in the same category

Just limiting the discussion for the moment to your own investigations / conclusions and JJs, he's got the more substantial resources, he's has called upon a wider wide scope of testing and he has the better resume .... so that has me leaning one way .... but the still unanswered question, again, puts a lot of weight behind his recommendation.

I'm not arguing that your recommendation is not validated by your benchmarks that you have run, I arguing that it validates performance ONLY under the benchmarks that you have run. I don't have a stake in what the outcome is one way or another. Until I have the time to do my own testing under real world conditions, I'm going go with the guy who spent years in the development and testing the very same MoBo Im using..... I'm quite content to let people know the data is out there and let people read it and make their own decisions.
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post #6993 of 19540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post



I have made no claims .... I claim to make no claims ..... my only comments are as follows:

1. There is not universal agreement on your claim that reducing cache ratio has no effect.

2. The breadth of your investigation and limitation to single task, CPU benchmarks is woefully insufficient to prove that this change has no effect of overall system performance. The scope of your testing is far too limited.

3. Your data is no more relevant than anyone else's.

1. I said reduction of uncore has almost no effect, not absolutely no effect. If we already say audience agree agreement means nothing, then why are we even discussing this point? This entire point is pointless.

 

2. Well I mean, if you think neither Chess nor Cinebench nor Skyrim nor SuperPi nor Oblivion nor Runescape nor Enemy Terittory nor BF3 Multiplayer, nor BF3 single player nor studio max nor 7z nor blender nor Photoshop nor x264 rendering nor 3dMark do not represent any sort of picture on the performance of a setting, then no CPU review is ever worthwhile because I've included more CPU benchmarks here than I think 99% of CPU reviewers. If you grant my numbers are valid, then it means at least for those programs, uncore has no major impact on performance. And I guarentee you, lots of people play some of the games or do some of the things above. How many benchmarks am I required to demonstrate any sort of point on a matter? Because it's already been like 15. 20? 30? 40? No, I feel 15 is enough to show a picture and a trend.

 

3. No.

 

I don't care at all what JJ has behind him. He has not offered benchmarks. He has offered no proof. You are measuring my evidence versus what he is saying. Based upon the lack of evidence, I win by default. We believe in claims based upon the level of evidence provided, not by who seems most trustworthy.

 

And until you have given me proof more extensive than mine, and verified by more people than mine, which I can reassure checks out, such talk about uncore mattering and 15 benchmarks not being enough and of 1:1 ratio and of uncore bottlenecking are not welcome here. If there are as many backers of those things as you say there are, you have plenty of threads/forums to hang out that agrees with you. I can, however, benchmark autocad for you. And if it checks out, then I put a little disclaimer that the rules I mentioned do not apply to that one specific application. But what if I find the opposite? You'll just say there isn't enough evidence.


Edited by Darkwizzie - 12/17/13 at 1:51pm
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post #6994 of 19540
Cyro, for the love of Jebus.. include the person's name your quoting on your quotes, I've noticed they're always missing.. very hard to find the person with so many new posts even though most is just repeating stuff nowadays (just like I'll do below).

About this uncore stuff, it's boring. But someone earlier mentioned that x50/x34 is better than x49/x49 which depending on the test is wrong/right (hence the problem with this whole boring topic). Take Cinebench as an example, increase the Multi by 1 and you'll see ~20 point increase. Drop the uncore by 1 Multi and you'll see a reduction of 0.2% of overall score. So if the overall score was 1000 then x49/x49 would score better than x50/x34. Do the same test in XTU Bench, and the result is reversed, it cares so little about uncore it's hard to even see.

See how boring this is?
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post #6995 of 19540
Deja vu - I swear this debate happened in this thread already....
post #6996 of 19540
Has to happen at least once a week or it wouldn't be the haswell overclocking thread.
post #6997 of 19540
I could understand if anyone was bringing up any new points, but it's just the same dispute....Darkwizzie, you should just refer people to the 1st page or one of the many pages where this dispute has happened before.... biggrin.gif
post #6998 of 19540
What is the stock uncore multi for an i7-4770k? It is x35 right?

I want to know so that I can manually set the uncore mulit, and focus on overclocking the core. Right now my uncore is at x39 and I feel as if something might be wrong right now... it took 1.36v to get my i7-4770k 4.5GHz stable...

Also, I tried setting "Adaptive Mode" in BIOS after I confirmed my OC was stable, but I would get a BSOD while booting into windows. I don't want my system hammering my CPU with 1.36v while I'm browsing the web, and idling at 35C-40C because of this, and also heating up my loop. Does anyone know how I can fix this? I have an ASUS ROG board... thanks.
Edited by brandon6199 - 12/17/13 at 6:44pm
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post #6999 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon6199 View Post

What is the stock uncore multi for an i7-4770k? It is x35 right?

I want to know so that I can manually set the uncore mulit, and focus on overclocking the core. Right now my uncore is at x39 and I feel as if something might be wrong right now... it took 1.36v to get my i7-4770k 4.5GHz stable...

Also, I tried setting "Adaptive Mode" in BIOS after I confirmed my OC was stable, but I would get a BSOD while booting into windows. I don't want my system hammering my CPU with 1.36v while I'm browsing the web, and idling at 35C-40C because of this, and also heating up my loop. Does anyone know how I can fix this? I have an ASUS ROG board... thanks.

If I remember correctly, 35x on the uncore will Turbo up to 39....So you might want to set it at 34x or 36x to keep it from boosting (if that's your goal). thumb.gif
post #7000 of 19540
Quote:
Originally Posted by blaze2210 View Post

If I remember correctly, 35x on the uncore will Turbo up to 39....So you might want to set it at 34x or 36x to keep it from boosting (if that's your goal). thumb.gif

Thanks... I'm just trying to follow Darkwizzie's first step:
Quote:
1. Set Uncore (AKA Ring Bus) to core ratio to manual. Set it to stock multiplier manually

He says to set it to stock multiplier manually. How do I know what the stock multiplier is?

Also, what does he mean by:
Quote:
With ring bus running on stock and locked at stock for now, no need to fiddle with ring bus voltage. That goes to auto. Some motherboards MAY increase Vring to unsafe levels if you didn't manually set ring bus to stock because the motherboard will try to auto-overclock the ring bus if left on auto.

This doesn't really make sense to me. Is uncore the same as ring bus?
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