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Haswell Overclocking Guide [With Statistics] - Page 927

post #9261 of 19539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemx View Post

One noob question if I may.

I watched this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0CHs5_TdpXE#t=1137 where Linus says that he recommends "quick and dirty overclock" to determine what kind of CPU one has. Thus setting multiplier to x46 and Vcore to 1.2 V.

Is this ok to try?


I've read your OC guide Darkwizzie and I think it's great, but I'm still getting a hang of everything in overclocking. For a start I'm trying to read every Haswell related OC guide I can get my hands on.

What do you mean by 'ok to try'? It's not going to harm your CPU, on the other hand it's usually a waste of time. x46 at 1.2v is not going to work for most people, and if you're going to try to gauge how good of a CPU you have, this setting is still a bit much. I mean, if you want to try it just because, go ahead, nothing bad is really going to happen. What you're basically doing with 4.6 and 1.2v is checking to see if you have a very good chip or not, not whether you have an average chip or not. Me, I would just go straight into overclocking to find out for sure.

 

Linus is cool and I like his WAN show but for in-depth OCing guides I don't go to Tek Syndicate or Linus or those large Youtubers for info. They are busy enough as is editing videos for a variety of topics computer related, they don't have time,energy, or will to chart and test everything Haswell. This is why I recommend community-driven guides like this one. Too many hours of my life has been spent here.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzdis View Post


That's almost surely not the case with ALL Asus boards, as my Z87-A set to manual Vcore has the following readings in HWinfo:

Core#0-3 VID: Stays constant, matches BIOS setting
Vcore0-3: fluctuates from almost 0 to about 0.02V above BIOS setting
VCOREREFIN: Stays mostly constant, dips slightly under load
VCCIN: Matches BIOS setting, rises slightly with load (LLC set to 8)

For my board, I have no idea what VCOREREFIN is. No matter what settings I've changed in the BIOS, VCOREREFIN has stayed the same (I think it's been 1.984 idle, 1.976 load).

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirerat View Post


My z87-plus has the vcore and VID swapped in HWmoniter I also notice the same bug in coretemp

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlawII View Post

Ok guys here is some better screen shots the first two are Manual voltage with all c-states disabled,the second two are adaptive with all c-states disabled. What i have noticed is by having manual voltage set with c-state disabled ,my vcore stays at the vid setting in the bios it does not fluctuate at all but my core speed still fluctuates. Adaptive voltage with no c-states lets the core voltage fluctuate and it lets the core speed fluctuate also.
Also to note my uncore speed does not change in either of these settings. Also i used the latest Beta for HwInfo

Mobo: Asus Hero
Cpu: 4770k
Core speed: 45
Uncore speed: 43
Vcore volt: 1.36
Uncorevolt: 1.25






I don't know what to make of all this. Too much variation in settings with the data. Maybe I'll give a blanket statment... these mobos are known to do this with this, to tell if Vcore is actually Vcore, this is how you find out, etc...

 

From your observations, did Cstates do anything at all?

I'm assuming that the reason why your clock speed is at 800mhz idle is because your mobo has some sort of core ratio mode option. On MSI, a "dynamic" core ratio mode allows it to change when not under load.

 

EDIT:
What, in your picture BOTH VID and Vcore fluctuated and Vcorerefin just looks like VCCIN or something. Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut.
yeah, I'd just stick with a blanket statement. Covering every single mobo type from each vendor and SKU is ridiculous.

 

I am getting data out of this though, it'll just take a while for me to figure out how I am going to explain this in my guide and finalize the next batch of updates...

 

If you have an Asrock board PM me or respond please.


Edited by Darkwizzie - 1/28/14 at 2:13pm
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post #9262 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzdis View Post

That's almost surely not the case with ALL Asus boards, as my Z87-A set to manual Vcore has the following readings in HWinfo:

Core#0-3 VID: Stays constant, matches BIOS setting
Vcore0-3: fluctuates from almost 0 to about 0.02V above BIOS setting
VCOREREFIN: Stays mostly constant, dips slightly under load
VCCIN: Matches BIOS setting, rises slightly with load (LLC set to 8)

For my board, I have no idea what VCOREREFIN is. No matter what settings I've changed in the BIOS, VCOREREFIN has stayed the same (I think it's been 1.984 idle, 1.976 load).
yes thats correct, my vcorerefin barely changes if anything
post #9263 of 19539
@darkwizzie the vcorerefin is very close to the vccin for me aswell BUT still not exactly it. i really don't know what it could be. BUT the vcorerefin DOES NOT move at all, whats so ever always the same number even when in load( was just playing some bf4 and checked it out.
Edited by paramazon - 1/28/14 at 2:08pm
post #9264 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

If in fact Hwinfo sensors for Asus mobos simply show what would typically be a Vcore value as VID, and show VID values as "Vcorerefin", then that would prove that for Asus, adaptive voltage DOES do something. How are you at 1ghz or 800mhz core clock on idle without eist or C states or variable multiplier mode?

I'm glad I decided to investigate this further, because right now the evidence is pointing towards Pamazon being right: Adaptive is not useless for Asus mobos.

Who has said Adaptive is useless on ASUS boards? I've now posted twice exactly what it does.. and VCOREFIN is not VCCIN nor VCORE reading. Just to add so you don't need to try and search it:

- it is useless if you use C states
- it is useful if you avoid C states like me
Edited by error-id10t - 1/28/14 at 2:22pm
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post #9265 of 19539
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by paramazon View Post

@darkwizzie the vcorerefin is very close to the vccin for me aswell BUT still not exactly it. i really don't know what it could be. BUT the vcorerefin DOES NOT move at all, whats so ever always the same number even when in load( was just playing some bf4 and checked it out.

It's a ghost! :aaskull:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forceman View Post


-

The sensors for Vcore/Vid are nuts on Asus.  Outlaw just posted pictures of VID being the SAME as Vcore. And other oddities. Not sure if this is a sensor fault or what...

 

Outlaw's pictures didn't tell me what C states. He says that manual voltage and no cstates allows for clock speed to drop to 800mhz - I suspect this is due to some other setting. On MSI, the clock speed falling is dictated by a setting called "CPU Ratio Mode". So his clock speed being 800mhz isn't too suprising to me.

Looks like I'll have to revise the parts of the guide on adaptive voltage yet again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by error-id10t View Post


Who has said Adaptive is useless on ASUS boards? I've now posted twice exactly what it does.. and VCOREFIN is not VCCIN nor VCORE reading.
Oops, made a booboo. I just completely edited this post.
 
Nobody did, and nobody did any testing. So I decided one day to test my board. So let's get this straight: Asus refers to the same thing as other mobos with different names (eg, cache ratio). When Asus is using the same terminology (adaptive voltage), it means a different thing compared to MSI. And Gigabyte doesn't even have it. Great. Testing this hasn't exactly been a picnic. Thankfully a lot of it is addressed now. So - Vcorerefin is this phantom reading that doesn't nessesarily correspond to something but almost fits Vrin. And on some Asus boards, VID reading is same as Vcore reading. And on Asus boards Adaptive does something. 
 
On my board, the functions of adaptive are none, and what you think of as functions of adaptive are all in the Cstates. So what do Cstates do in Asus boards?
 
I was going to reference http://www.overclock.net/t/1411077/haswell-overclocking-thread-with-statistics/8600_100#post_21613389 but I just realized they were claiming it to be Vrin, not even Vcore. Guess I just didn't read well enough.

Edited by Darkwizzie - 1/28/14 at 2:31pm
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post #9266 of 19539
This has been my experience with the asus board I have:

EIST (speedstep technology): when enabled will lower core multiplier under light load.

C1E: when enabled, will turn frequency to 0 when in halt (idle) state

C3: when enabled, will turn Vcore to 0 (as well as frequency to 0) when in halt (idle) state

C6: same as C3 except more of the core is such down (volts to 0) and state is saved to ring cache.

C7: save as C6 but perhaps even more.

Adaptive has the following effects: When EIST moves frequency down, voltage will go down to (same goes for "offset" mode but not for manual).
And what every knows: when AVS instruction encountered it will increase voltage by about .1v above what you put as max settings.


My theory on the remarks that frequency went down when all C states were disabled ... was EIST also disabled?

As for voltage going down in manual mode and C states enabled ... likely seeing the "average" effect when the core is going to 0v so often.
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post #9267 of 19539
The recent versions of HWInfo shows both VID/VCORE behave exactly the same, give the same reading. I'm sure they differed few versions back but not recently anymore.

C states function on ASUS boards exactly as they should and I believe every single board exhibits the same behaviour. It's when you disable them, you start seeing differences apparently:

1) Adaptive with no C states = 0.7v
2) Manual with no C states = no down-volting. Enable C3 in Manual mode, now it drops to 0.7v (same as point 1 now)
3) Both show the exact same behaviour when you enable up to C7. In this, you'd obviously choose Manual mode.

I run in Option 1 mode to avoid the slight latency C states introduce. However, I've been trying to google (and failing at it) to find how Adaptive does it. No program shows what it does to achieve that down-volt with no C states. Cstates program shows that C states aren't used, Realtemp 4.0 shows no C states are used (it covers up to C10 but we only have C7 max) and ThrottleStop shows it doesn't do it via clock/cpu modulation.

I didn't follow the above posts explanation but EIST is enabled, why anyone would disable it would be a mystery.
Edited by error-id10t - 1/28/14 at 3:33pm
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post #9268 of 19539
If EIST is enabled, the CPU will downclock to 800 MHz. The VID is dependent on frequency, so at 800 MHz the VID is likely 0.7V. Adaptive mode supplies Vcore equal to VID at default and lower freqs (depending on load) and additional voltage when overclocked. So that explains why adaptive is giving you 0.7V even with C states off, because the freq/VID is calling for it. What you lose out on in that configuration is the very low/zero sleep state voltages.

On the other hand, running in manual with C states on, you lose out on the downclocked 0.7V condition, but you instead get the very low/zero sleep voltage condition. Which is better is up for discussion.
Edited by Forceman - 1/28/14 at 3:38pm
post #9269 of 19539
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For my motherboard (MSI g45):

 

Adaptive is utterly useless. No effect on idle voltages or speeds alone or in combination with other settings.

 

Core Multiplier Setting determines idle clock speed (along with balanced power mode) makes idle clock drop to 800mhz. C states are required for this to work. Core Multiplier Setting sets EIST to ON when Core Multiplier Setting is set to dynamic instead of fixed. In other words, setting "core multiplier setting" to "dynamic" basically means setting EIST on.

 

Cstates drop idle power from normal VID.

 

No lower Vcore recorded with lower core multiplier. x46 or x8 regardless, idle voltage is same (very low in either case, 0.135v?) So here's a repeat: Eist on or off, idle voltage is the same. Idle voltage is determined by load and Cstates, not by Eist or adaptive.

 

So I think for my mobo it's easy to note:

EIST affects idle core speed.

Cstates affects idle voltage.

EIST does not affect idle voltage.

Cstates do not affect idle core speed.

Adaptive affects nothing at all except when you run AVX and the world explodes.

 

For Gigabyte I believe it's the same as my motherboard, but there isn't even the adaptive option to pick from, but not much of a loss considering it does nothing (for our mobos at least).


Edited by Darkwizzie - 1/28/14 at 3:59pm
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post #9270 of 19539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

If EIST is enabled, the CPU will downclock to 800 MHz. The VID is dependent on frequency, so at 800 MHz the VID is likely 0.7V. Adaptive mode supplies Vcore equal to VID at default and lower freqs (depending on load) and additional voltage when overclocked. So that explains why adaptive is giving you 0.7V even with C states off, because the freq/VID is calling for it. What you lose out on in that configuration is the very low/zero sleep state voltages.

On the other hand, running in manual with C states on, you lose out on the downclocked 0.7V condition, but you instead get the very low/zero sleep voltage condition. Which is better is up for discussion.

Exactly. For me, EIST off, C states on, and Manual volts is best purely because I avoid the extra .1v boost when AVX is involved. While my cooling solution might be able to handle such a large increase (mid-upper 1.4v's), I don't really care to run a 24/7 machine in that volt range.

If I wasn't overclocking and raising Vcore, I might just choose adaptive voltage with EIST instead. ... well maybe. smile.gif
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