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Anyone upgraded from SNB to Haswell can share his impressions on Z87 platform a - Page 4

post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusha View Post

one of my issues is, all the stuff that i have bought in the past thinking that i would be able to overclock well (video cards, CPUs, RAM), have fallen short of the avg overclocks other people have got. so i'm a bit worried that if i buy a 4770K, it won't even OC to 4.2GHz. 4.1GHz 4770K is almost same as 4.5GHz 2600K. i love OCing, but i won't delid because it takes away the resale value. and i would be keeping my SilverArrow Extreme. (only will run at max fan speeds, 2500RPM that is, when stress testing, else 1100RPM is the max I can tolerate)

People don't often talk loudly about their low overclocks, but yea, you need to understand that people getting high, lucky overclocks, are exactly that.

Haswell easily overclocks to 4.2ghz though, Haswell is just like Ivy and Sandy (being Sandy based architecture too), it will overclock to the same ~4.5-5ghz on the same voltage ranges. The only difference is that Haswell runs hotter, and, just like Ivy, you need to delid. As long as you use high end cooling, as in at least top tier high end air, and delid, you can do at the very minimum, 4.5ghz+.

Like the minimal cooling I'd recommend for Haswell would maybe be a D14, but you wouldn't be able to do 4.5 on one of the 50% of chips that can only do ~4.5 on less than 1.45v. You really should get at least a 240mm closed loop, if not a 280mm closed loop or custom loop kit like H220.

For example, I've got an H110 w/ 4x 140mm Yate Loon Highs and a below-average i7-4770K (can't get into OS on 4.6@1.2, need 1.3+ to be stable). I'm currently doing 4.8ghz@1.44vcore/2.03VRIN and my max temp is ~79C, 90C on AVX after delidding. If I had a better cooler it'd be a lot more comfortable using AVX stress tests, and I could possibly even do 4.9ghz@1.48v. Despite having a below-average chip, I have a strong enough cooler to simply just pump more voltage and get a higher overclock.

With proper cooling, and a delid, you'll easily hit 4.5ghz+ on Haswell. It's just a matter of how much further can you do, if you get better cooling, or how much less you can do if you get worse cooling.

As far as resale value, delidding does not affect resale value. On the market people value delid and non-delid about the same. You can always glue the IHS back on with some tar, or you can just sell the CPU+Motherboard or even your entire computer system whole. I sold my entire Ivy system as a whole set-up to someone on craigslist, they knew it was delidded and they didn't care since they just wanted a 5ghz i7-3770K that ran cool, they had no plans of taking the system apart and were to scared to delid themselves.

A Silver Arrow Extreme would be 'okay'. You should do 4.5ghz just fine, but you won't do much more than that with it. You should really invest in better cooling if you want those higher clocks with Haswell, even if you get a bad chip, just like with Ivy, you can just put more voltage through and, granted your cooling is strong enough, get an extra 100-300mhz.

Like I said, it's all down to how much you value your time and how much you like playing with new hardware. If you are smart, what you'll do is throw up your entire build on craigslist for a little mark-up, and be able to buy an entire Haswell rig for what you make off it. Since you aren't in a hurry to upgrade, just let it sit at a high price and slowly drop it every week. It took a month before someone bit on $1150 for an I7-3770k@5ghz, 8GB 2200mhz RAM, UD5H, Capstone 450, Source 210 w/ custom window, LED lighting to look good, NH-D14, X25-M 80gb SSD, no GPU, bunch of fans and fan controller, custom sleeving.
Edited by Belial - 7/27/13 at 4:32pm
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #32 of 38
Thread Starter 
In posted my rig on Craigslist (Japan). We shall see how it goes.

In the meantime, what you are suggesting is that if I'm not going to delid, it's not a good idea to switch the Haswell? I don't think I can sell a delided CPU here in Japan easily. Maybe you all can do it on OCN forums.
post #33 of 38
Yes. Haswell is pretty much 300-400mhz better per clock than Ivy, closer to 400. So if you don't delid, even with a high end cooler, you are not going to hit 4.6ghz unless you get a lucky chip. A 'noticeable' increase in performance starts at 10%, so that means against Sandy, you really want to get your clock speed at least a bit higher for a decent upgraqe.

In Japan you can sell a delidded CPU just as easily as non-delidded. It doesn't impact value. Like I said, you can just use some glue, such as silicon glue, to relid a chip, and if you sell your CPU + MOBO or entire system whole, no one will care (or they will appreciate) a delid. The whole 'danger' of delidding is killing the chip possibly, which you won't do if you do it right using the vice method (no one has messed it up, here's me doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbqzGH9Uwbs), and warranty, which the chip will not be covered under anyways under normal upgrade periods.

Intel chips have a 3 year warranty, by the time you upgrade again you'll be after 3 years after release. It's been 4 years since Sandy was released, so assuming similar upgrade path, your Haswell won't be covered under warranty anyways. You can also get an Intel Performance Plan, which gives you a no-questions-asked warranty if you really care, but there's really no reason to.

If you want to get into grey area and what's moral, etc, that's up to you, but overclocking or using different specs of motherboard or RAM or an aftermarket heatsink or thermal paste is considered voiding the warranty too.

I mean let's say even the value is reduced by delidding, which won't happen, but let's say it does - so what? Let's say you lose $50! Oh my god, that's a HUGE knock off the price! Wait ... dropping 20-30C on average is worth a LOT more than just $50 (ie going from a $20 Hyper 212+ to a $60 NH-D14 will give you about a 10-20C temp drop). There's also a HUGE market for broken, slightly broken, etc parts. Even if you mess up your delid and break it, it'll still sell easily for $100+ because there are tons of people looking for busted or broken chips to mess with, possibly get lucky and save $300+ on, etc.

Your premise is just a little ridiculous, this worry of delidding somehow being unsellable. How many people live in Japan? Seriously dude, it'll sell. Now, what price will it sell for? Now that varies, but a delidded chip can be relidded, and a delidded chip is not worth any less than a non-delid chip. If anything, it's actually worth more due to the successful delid. People in Japan know what delidding is, believe me. Even if they don't, you can explain it in the ad you put up.

People who are looking to buy custom built computers already built, or CPU+Mobo combos, they don't care if it's delidded or not. The people who know what delidding is, will appreciate it, the people who don't, won't care. There isn't much you need to explain. You don't even need to mention it's delidded, just list a working Haswell + Mobo and the person uses it and they're good to go, or you can explain it in person. I'm not saying you need to be unscrupulous here, but come on, I mean the person who will buy a used Haswell from you in 3 years isn't really going to care. I sold my delidded Ivy to someone, I mentioned in the ad it was delidded, I told him in face to face that it's a mod to decrease temps significantly and results in much cooler CPU, it allows it to hit 5ghz when it otherwise wouldn't, it saves energy, there's a reason everyone delids.

If you are really worried, throw up a delidded Haswell on a japanese classifieds page, put it slightly below market value, like 1000 Yen less. You'll get flooded with offers all the same.

Not to mention, shipping is cheap. You can ship a CPU for extremely cheap internationally because it's a small package (a motherboard would be 'small package' as well). ~1500 Yen to ship from Japan to US : http://www.post.japanpost.jp/cgi-charge/result.php?lang=_en

If you don't need to upgrade, don't upgrade. Dude, it's very simple. You have no need to upgrade, all you do is gaming and light encoding so your Sandy is more than adequate for your tasks, and Haswell won't be a large performance boost, you are better off upgrading your GPU for performance boosts. On the other hand, there is no reason you shouldn't just sell your Sandy and buy Haswell, because there is a noticeable performance boost, and the cost is very minimal since you can just sell your Sandy and eventually sell the Haswell.

Like I said, if you enjoy building computers, and taking a month out to spend tweaking a computer, and you just totally nerd out about stuff like increased IMC and performance per core, get Haswell. It's a truly awesome chip, it's about twice as good as going from Sandy to Ivy. But there's not much reason for you to be using even an SB-i7 anyways, an SB-i5 is more than powerful enough for your needs.
Edited by Belial - 7/30/13 at 9:13pm
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post #34 of 38
Thread Starter 
Thanks for those words. Guess what? I don't have to make this decision by my own anymore. Nature made it for me. My Z68 board went bust yesterday. Thanks to just 2 years of warranty given by ASRock, I cannot RMA. Sure I can just buy a Z77 board, but what the hell. I went for the 4770K + ROG Hero. They should arrive tomorrow.

I managed to find a cheap vice and CoolLaboratory Liquid Pro in case I make up my mind to delid. Need to look more into this though. I can understand how to delid, but I don't know how to apply the new thermal paste in (you need to do something about the IVR circuitry as well, right? Something like MX4 there?) Then do you just place the lid and let the socket hold it in place or you glue it back? How much paste should I use etc. etc.

If I somehow get a 4.6 @1.2V chip, I won't delid. Else might be compelled to.
post #35 of 38
I'm pretty sure if you contact asrock and say nothing about your warranty or that it just expired, they'll still cover you. If they seriously did not cover you just because you just went over 2 years, that'd be very ridiculous (a high expectation, perhaps, but most tech companies are very good in service. asrock, unfortunately, is not know for great service, quite the opposite, but i'm sure it's still very good).

I don't know why you bought haswell with such a situation, that seems kinda... not a good idea to make that decision, but regardless you should still RMA your old board. You can then sell the replacement (or, you can ask asrock to give you credit, their OCF m-atx board is considered one of the best Z87 boards available at the moment for high ram overclocking, or you can ask them to just pay you instead of giving you a replacement). I'm not sure if Asrock will ask for an original receipt, but most tech companies do not ask for receipts with RMAs.
Quote:
I managed to find a cheap vice and CoolLaboratory Liquid Pro in case I make up my mind to delid. Need to look more into this though. I can understand how to delid, but I don't know how to apply the new thermal paste in (you need to do something about the IVR circuitry as well, right? Something like MX4 there?) Then do you just place the lid and let the socket hold it in place or you glue it back? How much paste should I use etc. etc.

Why would you buy Pro? Ultra is literally Pro V2.0. There is no reason to ever buy Pro instead of Ultra.

You apply new thermal paste to the die just like you would to the IHS. You don't need to do anything to the FIVR circuitry. Some people apply standard ceramique thermal paste over it to insulate it, but there is no reason to, it's just people being paranoid (that said, I did it). Just use the cheapest ceramique you have, but mx-4 would be fine. Any non-conductive ceramique. Hot glue actually would probably be 'better', but again it's not necessary and anything would work for something that does nothing.

You don't glue it back. Socket holds it down.

For the IHS, you should use a small rice grain. The perfect application should onyl cover about 1/2 your IHS. For your die, you should use like a tiny dot, just enough to pop out of the tube (and then draw it back so it is a long, thinner line). It shouldnt' matter if you use CLU/CLP, which you need to spread since it's gallium, which is a weird mercury like substance that doesn't spread normally like standard ceramique thermal pastes.

You can read my 'Belial's Thermal Paste and Heatsink Review' on an in-depth guide and discussion on thermal paste application: http://www.overclock.net/t/1346069/belials-heatsink-tim-comparison-and-reviews-hyper-212-h50-nh-d14-pk-1-pk-2-pk-3/0_100
Quote:
If I somehow get a 4.6 @1.2V chip, I won't delid. Else might be compelled to.

You won't, unless you get one of the best chips, like top 5%. In which case, you could be doing 5ghz if you delidded. And delidding is always beneficial. If you have a bad chip, it allows you to squeeze an extra 200-300mhz. If it's a good chip... it lets you squeeze an extra 200-300mhz. It also gives a 20-30C temp drop, which results in about a 50-100 watt reduction, which roughly comes out to about $50-100 a year on average. Lower temps also means longer life for your chip.

The only reason you wouldn't delid, is if you do lots of LN2 or DICE overclocks, ie 6ghz+ on sub-ambient. But don't worry, not enough people do LN2/DICE that you'll somehow be unable to sell your Haswell at full market price becuase it's delidded, especially in Japan. Even if you did run into someone like that, they wouldn't buy your Haswell anyways because it's used, these people only buy either binned high chips (as in top 1% binning CPU and top 1% IMC) or brand new chips, not used chips.

Finally, I have to strongly critisize your choice of buying a ROG Hero. Sorry, but you seem to really not know what you are doing, and then you buy a $200+ premo motherboard? The only people who should be buying Heros are RAM benchers, LN2/DICE, or people using 3 or 4-way SLI/Crossfire. Why in the world would you buy a Hero?

It sounds like you are just wasting money. Why would you buy an i7 if you are just a gamer? Get an i5. Why would you buy a hero? Get a UD3H, if anything a Z87X-OC or Asrock OCF if you really want a 'premo board'. You even still have crappy RAM, a mediocre graphics card, and a crappy cooler.

Like my system will outperform yours, in every single way, because I have a $20 better cooler than you, you are using 16gb of RAM when you only need 4-8gb which means your RAM is slower, not to mention, your RAM is awful (mine is the same price but because I bought the right RAM IC, I can do 3ghz while yours struggles to do 2ghz), my graphics card is slightly better than yours, yet every single component in your system is more expensive than mine. That's called buying non-smart.

You really need to upgrade your graphics card before you even think about ROGs and Haswells. Gaming performance is all about the graphics card, unless you play CPU intensive games like SC2 (which is what I play, but it's not the reason I have an i7).

Seriously, an i5 system with a 7950 on a UD3H with a H100i and 2800mhz 8GB RAM will significantly outperform your system, while being half the cost.

No offense, but seriously, ask around before making purchasing decisions. No where in this thread did anyone recommend an i7 or ROG. You realize you can plug a PCI-E x1 card into a PCI-E x16 physical slot, right? Just keep your sound card, or don't. The UD3H has great ALC898 sound with amps, as do most budget boards, and unless you actually have a quality sound system $300+ you shouldn't even be thinking of sound cards and on-board sound.

You do mention price, so if you got some great deal that could change things and I'm sorry if I'm biting your head off here, but an i7, especially when you are still on a 670, and a premo board when you are just a basic level overclocker doesn't sound justifiable purchases.
Edited by Belial - 8/1/13 at 5:47pm
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post #36 of 38
Thread Starter 
I don't understand you sometimes. Gtx670 is faster than the 7950 most of the times. It's only now the drivers have improved to make it pretty much same as a 7950. 7950 might OC well, but who knows? Either way, I'm upgrading the graphics card coming January because I'm getting a $400 discount which can be used to buy pretty much any gadget when I change my Internet connection. There are suh deal here. Anyways, what GPU do you think I should upgrade to? There is only one card that's worth upgrading to and that's the GTX780. Do you know how expensive that card is over here? Cheapest is $750. Even after selling my current card (at $250), I would have to spend another $500 to get it.

I'm not going to get even $50 for that old board (it's two chipsets old stuff depreciate way faster over here) even in a brand new condition. So it's not a big deal. I can get over $200 for the CPU, which btw needs too much volts for 4.5GHz which is a sad thing. (This is also an unopened but returned CPU from someone who probably bought a batch of them and found out that batch doesn't OC well.)

I'll contact ASRock anyways. It take stop much time anyways.

Liquid Ultra is not available here. I will have to use eBay then. eBay seems cheaper too. Good. Thanks for tips btw. Except that 50W reduction when you delid part? The heat (or energy wastage) you generate is still the same.

Sure and i5 would be enough for me, for anyone in fact (even if HT is used to the fullest, the % performance gain is still lower than % higher price.) I'm definitely not downgrading from an i7 to an i5. Simple. I like new stuff. But don't want to take to many risks.

The Hero is not a high end board. It's on par with (or only tad higher than) a UD4H performance as well as price wise. But it packs more features.

And dude, I bought these RAM a long time ago and they were the cheapest out there except for non-brand name sticks. And I wouldn't have bought this cooler if I could mount a H110. The case doesn't support it and I bought this case when there weren't any dual 140mm rads out there and not many cases either. That's what happens when you upgrade and not build from the scratch. I would have changed the case had I could sell this. BTW, the SilverArrow Extreme can cool better than a H100i which is not farther from a H110, or even match it. Just too loud at those fan speeds than the H110.

Who knows I might sell the RAM as well.

As foreigners, it's hard to get into these stuff. We never move with the Japanese people. We never watch Japanese TV, Japanese movies, browse Japanese websites, read Japanese etc etc. Japanese is hard work. We communicate in out native tougue or English. Besides, I'm not here to stay. I'll probably move away in a couple of years. If I was in Sri Lanka, I would have easily sold these stuff for a higher price. (But stuff are very expensive there.) Just don't evaluate everything from your pov.

Btw, the Hero and the 4770K was not a great deal but its the best deal I could find over here. Sure it's not like MicroCenter or even Newegg. You anyways have a 5% tax over everything. Still it cost me less than the Newegg price. The whole thing cost me like $500. The UD4H would have cost me $480. The Hero has benefits more than that $20.

Oh and btw, I won't be able to spend too mug time with the PC next year because so much is happening.
post #37 of 38
Quote:
I don't understand you sometimes. Gtx670 is faster than the 7950 most of the times. It's only now the drivers have improved to make it pretty much same as a 7950. 7950 might OC well, but who knows? Either way, I'm upgrading the graphics card coming January because I'm getting a $400 discount which can be used to buy pretty much any gadget when I change my Internet connection. There are suh deal here. Anyways, what GPU do you think I should upgrade to? There is only one card that's worth upgrading to and that's the GTX780. Do you know how expensive that card is over here? Cheapest is $750. Even after selling my current card (at $250), I would have to spend another $500 to get it.

670 is faster than 7950 at stock, 7950's true value from overclocking. It also had driver issues that plagued it for a while. Finally, there's the +50 power limit fix you need to do to it, something reviewers never do. OC vs OC, with the updated drivers, and the +50 power limit, 7950 is fairly stronger than 670, and cheaper too. I mean not a huge difference, but the 7950 is not a particularly strong GPU. You are talking Hero's and i7s and you are using a mid-range GPU, not even a 680/7970, and really you should have a Titan/7990 if you are discussing this level of hardware as a gamer/light encoder. But even before the drivers improved much, the 7950 was better OC vs OC, and most of it was Crossfire issues, not single card.

What $400 discount are you getting exactly? I know it's OT but that sounds pretty insane. I want to change my internet, am I missing something I could be getting in the process!

I'm not the best person to ask on GPUs, there are better people to ask on that, and I do believe Nvidia > AMD in general, but you can't mine on Nvidia, which is what I do (i actually game on my integrated graphics, which is a big reason I bought haswell due to significant improved iGPU, that way my GPU can do it's work while I game) and the 7950/7970 are actually really, really good value mid-range cards. My point was that given how you use your computer, you should be using a Titan before you should be worry about Hero's and i7's. You'd get a far greater return on investment, value, etc.

An i7 isn't going to be any better in gaming for you than an i5. And an i5 isn't really going to be very noticeable for you over an i3, or your sandy i7... or really a sandy i5. But a graphics card has a dramatic impact on gaming performance, for the most part.
Quote:
o you know how expensive that card is over here? Cheapest is $750. Even after selling my current card (at $250), I would have to spend another $500 to get it.

i7-4770k is $340 on newegg, $280 on microcenter bundle. I can't imagine it's cheaper than $400 for you, and I would guess it's more like $500 in Japan. So yea, I think you would do WAY better to get a GTX 780 than a i7 + Hero. How much does the i7-4770k and Hero cost you? It can't be much cheaper than the 780 after selling your 670. And what about 670 SLI?
Quote:
Liquid Ultra is not available here. I will have to use eBay then. eBay seems cheaper too. Good. Thanks for tips btw. .

You should be able to get Liquid Ultra still. There is a seller on Ebay from Germany, he ships international. Cheapest place for US buyers to currently buy CLU, I'm sure it would be cheap for Japan too.
Quote:
Except that 50W reduction when you delid part? That's total BS. The heat (or energy wastage) you generate is still the same

Well first off, I have a kill-a-watt, so I can just tell you my change in power consumption. At 66C my consumption is 250w, with my fans blasting at 100%. At 80C when I turned off my 4x fans (which consume ~30w, they are 140mm with led's thats why they consume so much), my consumption was 270C (add on 30w, that's 50w difference in 15C).

But here, let me show you

http://www.overclock.net/t/1247413/ivy-bridge-overclocking-guide-with-ln2-guide-at-the-end


Now I know this graph at the hottest shows only 30C, showing a 13w increase from a 10C increase, but it's clearly an exponential increase and we can all extrapolate that the difference in 70-80C is definitely more than 20w.

Or how about this thread?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2200205



At 3ghz@1.5v, we see ~7w rise on +10C.

It's very simple thermodynamics. Increased heat causes increased resistance. Increased resistance means increased current needed to overcome resistance. Means more power draw.
Quote:
Sure and i5 would be enough for me, for anyone in fact (even if HT is used to the fullest, the % performance gain is still lower than % higher price.) I'm definitely not downgrading from an i7 to an i5. Simple. I like new stuff. But don't want to take to many risks.

Going from an SB-i7 to a Haswell-i5 at same clock speed would be a huge upgrade in performance. It would not be a downgrade at all.
Quote:
And dude, I bought these RAM a long time ago and they were the cheapest out there except for non-brand name sticks. And I wouldn't have bought this cooler if I could mount a H110. The case doesn't support it and I bought this case when there weren't any dual 140mm rads out there and not many cases either. That's what happens when you upgrade and not build from the scratch. I would have changed the case had I could sell this. BTW, the SilverArrow Extreme can cool better than a H100i which is not farther from a H110, or even match it. Just too loud at those fan speeds than the H110.

You can always drill holes for an H110, but I never said get an h110. Get a custom water loop, or an h100, whatever, there are many coolers that are better than high end air that you can mount easily. A custom loop with a 120mm radiator would mount in any case just fine and give you significantly improved temps.

Silver Arrow extreme does not cool better than an h100i, especially one with 4x fans on it, and an h100i is significantly worse than an h110. I don't know where you get your information but frostytech and hardwaresecrets and tomshardware are not good heatsink reviews, okay?

I don't know what your foreigner rant is about, I was not making any judgement or call on how japanese overclocking community is... you just don't exactly hear of Team JP. I just assumed their market isn't any different than anywhere else in the world, take a chill pill. I've lived in japan anyways.
Quote:
Btw, the Hero and the 4770K was not a great deal but its the best deal I could find over here. Sure it's not like MicroCenter or even Newegg. You anyways have a 5% tax over everything. Still it cost me less than the Newegg price. The whole thing cost me like $500. The UD4H would have cost me $480. The Hero has benefits more than that $20.

you mentioned you could get it for a good price, but you didn't really go more in-depth. A deal for yourself or a deal in the country? Because if it's a deal for you, and you can just flip the Hero for 2x as much to anyone in japan, than yea, of course get it. A higher profit margin is a great reason to buy something that is on sale to you but to no one else. It'd be a lot easier if you could tell us how mucht he i7 is over there, the hero is, and the ud3h (or extreme4, gd65, few other competitive boards). We know how to translate yen. They are just pennies.
Edited by Belial - 8/1/13 at 9:38pm
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post #38 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial View Post

670 is faster than 7950 at stock, 7950's true value from overclocking. It also had driver issues that plagued it for a while. Finally, there's the +50 power limit fix you need to do to it, something reviewers never do. OC vs OC, with the updated drivers, and the +50 power limit, 7950 is fairly stronger than 670, and cheaper too. I mean not a huge difference, but the 7950 is not a particularly strong GPU. You are talking Hero's and i7s and you are using a mid-range GPU, not even a 680/7970, and really you should have a Titan/7990 if you are discussing this level of hardware as a gamer/light encoder. But even before the drivers improved much, the 7950 was better OC vs OC, and most of it was Crossfire issues, not single card.
sure mate. if i can see the future, i could have made a lot of different decisions. but when i bought my card, it was not only the cheapest highend card with a 3rd party cooler, but also faster than a 7970. this is as fast as a GTX680 because of the factory OC. my card does not overclock that well, but who knows, neither 7950 nor 7970 nor GTX680 OC even that high. at that time, this was the best card for me to get.
Quote:
What $400 discount are you getting exactly? I know it's OT but that sounds pretty insane. I want to change my internet, am I missing something I could be getting in the process!
check this out. not sure if i you can see it. it says, if i register for a internet connection from OCN via kakaku.com, i get a JPY 40,000 discount. http://kakaku.com/item/K0000312603

apparently it is not applicable for all the products. hopefully it will be applicable to the next gen ATI card (cos nVidia cards won't be out by then) by January.
Quote:
I'm not the best person to ask on GPUs, there are better people to ask on that, and I do believe Nvidia > AMD in general, but you can't mine on Nvidia, which is what I do (i actually game on my integrated graphics, which is a big reason I bought haswell due to significant improved iGPU, that way my GPU can do it's work while I game) and the 7950/7970 are actually really, really good value mid-range cards. My point was that given how you use your computer, you should be using a Titan before you should be worry about Hero's and i7's. You'd get a far greater return on investment, value, etc.
not really, considering the current Japanese prices. I'm not even a hardcore gamer. i just love stuff to play with. overclocking a GPU is not that exciting as overclocking a CPU tbh.

besides, you don't need a Titan for 1080p. even the GTX780 is overkill. besides, didn't i tell you i'm looking to upgrade the GPU. timing wise, this is the better option, because i want to get something in January (my birthday) and getting a video card now without knowing what AMD will come up with in the couple of months, and getting the CPU in January when it is about 6-7 months old doesn't sound like the right option.

i capture games while playing, so you cannot say the CPU upgrade isn't useful.
Quote:
An i7 isn't going to be any better in gaming for you than an i5. And an i5 isn't really going to be very noticeable for you over an i3, or your sandy i7... or really a sandy i5. But a graphics card has a dramatic impact on gaming performance, for the most part.
i7-4770k is $340 on newegg, $280 on microcenter bundle. I can't imagine it's cheaper than $400 for you, and I would guess it's more like $500 in Japan. So yea, I think you would do WAY better to get a GTX 780 than a i7 + Hero. How much does the i7-4770k and Hero cost you? It can't be much cheaper than the 780 after selling your 670. And what about 670 SLI?
i explained about the timing before so no need to explain again. the decision was always going to be, either upgrade to haswell or not. ot whether to get the CPU upgrade or the GPU upgrade. GPU upgrade is always coming in January. (especially when it has been about 2 months after the next gen AMD cards have arrived. initial prices are way too much.
Quote:
You should be able to get Liquid Ultra still. There is a seller on Ebay from Germany, he ships international. Cheapest place for US buyers to currently buy CLU, I'm sure it would be cheap for Japan too.
sure, i already decide to get it from ebay.
this guy, right? link
Quote:
Well first off, I have a kill-a-watt, so I can just tell you my change in power consumption. At 66C my consumption is 250w, with my fans blasting at 100%. At 80C when I turned off my 4x fans (which consume ~30w, they are 140mm with led's thats why they consume so much), my consumption was 270C (add on 30w, that's 50w difference in 15C).

But here, let me show you

http://www.overclock.net/t/1247413/ivy-bridge-overclocking-guide-with-ln2-guide-at-the-end


Now I know this graph at the hottest shows only 30C, showing a 13w increase from a 10C increase, but it's clearly an exponential increase and we can all extrapolate that the difference in 70-80C is definitely more than 20w.

Or how about this thread?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2200205



At 3ghz@1.5v, we see ~7w rise on +10C.

It's very simple thermodynamics. Increased heat causes increased resistance. Increased resistance means increased current needed to overcome resistance. Means more power draw.
i'm sorrry about this. you are correct. I actually forgot about Anandtech's article back then. I read it too btw. it's mostly due to these Tri-gate transistors right? It wasn't that noticeable in SandyBridge iirc. But i don't have a Kill-a-watt to confirm.
Quote:
Going from an SB-i7 to a Haswell-i5 at same clock speed would be a huge upgrade in performance. It would not be a downgrade at all.
You can always drill holes for an H110, but I never said get an h110. Get a custom water loop, or an h100, whatever, there are many coolers that are better than high end air that you can mount easily. A custom loop with a 120mm radiator would mount in any case just fine and give you significantly improved temps.

Silver Arrow extreme does not cool better than an h100i, especially one with 4x fans on it, and an h100i is significantly worse than an h110. I don't know where you get your information but frostytech and hardwaresecrets and tomshardware are not good heatsink reviews, okay?
most of it comes from OCN and XtremeSystems actually. so you call these bad ha?
so which ones do you recommend?
Quote:
I don't know what your foreigner rant is about, I was not making any judgement or call on how japanese overclocking community is... you just don't exactly hear of Team JP. I just assumed their market isn't any different than anywhere else in the world, take a chill pill. I've lived in japan anyways.
i'm not ranting. just saying, when it comes to living here in Japan, i'm always taking the easy way out. don't wanna deal too much with people - especially in Japanese. biggrin.gif
Quote:
you mentioned you could get it for a good price, but you didn't really go more in-depth. A deal for yourself or a deal in the country? Because if it's a deal for you, and you can just flip the Hero for 2x as much to anyone in japan, than yea, of course get it. A higher profit margin is a great reason to buy something that is on sale to you but to no one else. It'd be a lot easier if you could tell us how mucht he i7 is over there, the hero is, and the ud3h (or extreme4, gd65, few other competitive boards). We know how to translate yen. They are just pennies.

here are the rough cheapest prices in yen.
4770k = 32000
Z87 Pro = 21140
Hero = 24770
GD65 Gaming = 20400 (Sin showed the VRM on these boards are crap, so I steered clear)
UD4H = 21300 (hero and this seems to have almost the same quality VRMs, UD4H maybe slightly better but no idea)

4770k + Z87 Pro bundle = 48850
4770k + Hero bundle = 52000
4770k + GD65 Gaming bundle = 51200
4770k + UD4H bundle = 48700

only the Z87 Pro is the not-overpriced board. others are all overpriced. but Z87 Pro seems to have some quality issues and are using doublers to increase the phase count.

didn't look at Asus this time around. The Extreme6 is 22k+. Even the Extreme4, even though the list price is 18k or something, the discount is almost nothing. so it would still cost as much as the Z87 Pro (which is obviously the better board.)

either way, I didn't want to get another 1155 board. probably would have stuck with the old CPU + mobo combo, or upgrade. motherboard dead -> time to upgrade. simple.
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