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[CoinDesk] Bitcoin debit card iBTCard will offer lower processing fees for merchants - Page 4

post #31 of 46
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#What_is_mining.3F

"mining" is a bad term

when you "mine" you are just helping to compute the calculations that keep track of the bitcoins transactions for everyone.
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post #32 of 46
There's also the fact that in certain places local currencies are weak or volatile, rendering savings in them useless for long term.
People would normally buy USD or gold, but sometimes there are regulations to stop you or limit you for doing so. (Like what happens in my country or Venezuela)

This coin called copperlark has more investment from the get go, and they seem to have a solid plan for it in the russian market:
https://copperlark.com/
https://upbit.org/en/

I like the exchange site they created too, since it has more functionality, akin to forex (limit/stop/market buy/sell orders and good graphs)
Something like that could become big in my country for example.
post #33 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

you guys are missing the point.

We don't dig for dollar bills.

Our currency is used as a place holder basically, it's value was derived from somewhere. That value was earned through working hours, selling a service, or selling a product.

Where does the value come from with bitcoins? My $30 dollars can represent quite a bit. It could from the hour of work I've done, from a good meal I prepared somebody, or a simply mowing somebody's yard.

Those $30 dollars weren't just magically found and given value. Even money you find in the street, it came from somewhere. From somebody that worked for it, or from somebody that sold something for it.

Digging for petroleum is worth money because the petroleum itself is valuable to our society. That value is represented by our currency. So a $100 dollar bill is probably worth like a penny in materials, but it's representative of the sweat and work that was put into earning that bill.

How does mining for bitcoins fit into this? What are you mining, how is is valuable, and how does it earn it? Saying its rare is crap. I can say each of my boogers is rare.....doesn't suddenly make it a $200 gem. Bitcoins aren't a raw material, they aren't a usable product or service, they aren't exotic diamonds, they're just some weird scheme that's been cooking up on the internet.


Without calling me an ignorant idiot for not understanding the entire picture, what am I missing?


There's so much mis-information here.

Anybody who thinks that money represents value, NEEDS to see this documentary link
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post #34 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossewacker View Post

you guys are missing the point.

We don't dig for dollar bills.

Our currency is used as a place holder basically, it's value was derived from somewhere. That value was earned through working hours, selling a service, or selling a product.

Where does the value come from with bitcoins? My $30 dollars can represent quite a bit. It could from the hour of work I've done, from a good meal I prepared somebody, or a simply mowing somebody's yard.

Those $30 dollars weren't just magically found and given value. Even money you find in the street, it came from somewhere. From somebody that worked for it, or from somebody that sold something for it.

Digging for petroleum is worth money because the petroleum itself is valuable to our society. That value is represented by our currency. So a $100 dollar bill is probably worth like a penny in materials, but it's representative of the sweat and work that was put into earning that bill.

How does mining for bitcoins fit into this? What are you mining, how is is valuable, and how does it earn it? Saying its rare is crap. I can say each of my boogers is rare.....doesn't suddenly make it a $200 gem. Bitcoins aren't a raw material, they aren't a usable product or service, they aren't exotic diamonds, they're just some weird scheme that's been cooking up on the internet.


Without calling me an ignorant idiot for not understanding the entire picture, what am I missing?

From your comments, I take it that you're not sure whether to treat Bitcoins as either a commodity or a currency. I'm just going to go ahead and say that you should treat it as a currency, as it's completely useless on it's own, exactly like paper money. The reason that you can trade your hour of work for $30 and then use it to buy X Item is because society has determined that your hour of work is worth that X Item. Since it's easier to give someone a bunch of dollars or a check than a bag of groceries or X hours of electricity, we as a society have agreed to use those pointless pieces of paper.

The only difference between the legitimacy of a dollar and of a bitcoin is that bitcoins are new. If the situation was reversed, with paper money being new and the world using something like BTC since forever, we would all be paid in BTC, would use it to pay our bill and buy our groceries, and wonder what kind of idiot would think that a slip of paper could be valuable or useful. But since BTC is the new currency, it isn't widely known, has a large amount of skepticism as to whether it'll actually work, and isn't universally accepted, meaning that there are situations exactly like this thread. Assuming that BTC continues to be used and gains acceptance, there will eventually be a point where it could be considered as legitimate and 'real' as a Dollar or Euro, and it would gain value and usage from that perception of legitimacy.

If it does gain that legitimacy, BTC is no longer 'magic computer money', it just simply becomes what we use to buy things.

Edit: TL;DR It's a chicken or the egg problem essentially. For BTC to become a 'legitimate currency', people have to use it. But for people to use it, it has to be a 'legitimate currency.' Until that happens, people will question why anyone would use it.
Edited by Shimme - 7/31/13 at 11:33am
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post #35 of 46
The argument: "The reason your birth certificate has a value is because it's issued by a government authority."

You damn right it has a value then. What's your point? That you hate governments? We know that.

We may even all hate them. Your fixation on it does not change reality though. Money has value.
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post #36 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimme View Post

Edit: TL;DR It's a chicken or the egg problem essentially. For BTC to become a 'legitimate currency', people have to use it. But for people to use it, it has to be a 'legitimate currency.' Until that happens, people will question why anyone would use it.

Paper money had the same problem in the beginning. Imagine being the first people to try to trade paper for gold. It took time, but it became universally accepted.
Bitcoin is now in the same situation. But people today are at least familiar with the concept. Which gives bitcoin a huge advantage today, compared to the first paper money.
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post #37 of 46
Quote:
The argument: "The reason your birth certificate has a value is because it's issued by a government authority."

You damn right it has a value then. What's your point? That you hate governments? We know that.

We may even all hate them. Your fixation on it does not change reality though. Money has value.

You really don't seem to 'get' what's being said here. The reason that money has value is not because it's backed by a government, but because it has the perception of legitimacy, and the support of an authoritative organization helps with that perception.

What the actual argument is goes something like this :

Q - "You trade and invest in imaginary money, but why? Your cryptocurrency has no practical use, and if it were to lose it's value you would be stuck with a useless numbers. It's a dumb idea to hold value in something that cannot be readily used for anything beyond trading."

A- "But the money we use everyday has no practical use beyond trading, and if it were to lose it's value, we still would be stuck with a bunch of useless papers. If we're willing to accept the risk that we could lose a lot by keeping money in useless objects/numbers, why should it matter what we hold that value in. And if one form of thosetrading mediums has an advantage over another trading medium, shouldn't we use the better form of money?

Bitcoin is an unusual, and new form of money, but that doesn't change that it's money. And as you said, money has value.
Edited by Shimme - 7/31/13 at 12:25pm
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post #38 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

Paper money had the same problem in the beginning. Imagine being the first people to try to trade paper for gold. It took time, but it became universally accepted.
Bitcoin is now in the same situation. But people today are at least familiar with the concept. Which gives bitcoin a huge advantage today, compared to the first paper money.

Exactly! Paper money actually started off as an easier way to transfer large quantities of gold between banks, something like an "IOU 50lbs of gold" , and was completely useless in most situations - much like BTC is being used for today (since most people will cash out a BTC transaction for Dollars/Euros/Whatever), except as a way to anonymously transfer money from one account to another.
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post #39 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge View Post

Paper money had the same problem in the beginning. Imagine being the first people to try to trade paper for gold. It took time, but it became universally accepted.
Bitcoin is now in the same situation. But people today are at least familiar with the concept. Which gives bitcoin a huge advantage today, compared to the first paper money.

The problem I see with bitcoins is that there is no backing. There also seem to be no stability. In the beginning, paper money (at least in the US) was backed by the full value in gold and a mostly stable government. That gave people the confidence to use that paper money. I don't see the confidence in bitcoins. To be honest, if someone tried to pay me in bitcoins I would laugh in their face, because it would be akin to paying me with Monopoly money. That is going to be a huge hurdle to leap. Bitcoins will not become a widely traded currency until there are regulations (something bitcoins were invented to avoid), and backing (not sure this will be possible). Admittedly I am not that knowledgeable about bitcoins, but I don't see the need to understand them better since I highly doubt they will become a legitimate currency any time soon, if ever so take my comments accordingly.
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post #40 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimme View Post

You really don't seem to 'get' what's being said here. The reason that money has value is not because it's backed by a government, but because it has the perception of legitimacy, and the support of an authoritative organization helps with that perception.

What the actual argument is goes something like this :

Q - "You trade and invest in imaginary money, but why? Your cryptocurrency has no practical use, and if it were to lose it's value you would be stuck with a useless numbers. It's a dumb idea to hold value in something that cannot be readily used for anything beyond trading."

A- "But the money we use everyday has no practical use beyond trading, and if it were to lose it's value, we still would be stuck with a bunch of useless papers. If we're willing to accept the risk that we could lose a lot by keeping money in useless objects/numbers, why should it matter what we hold that value in. And if one form of thosetrading mediums has an advantage over another trading medium, shouldn't we use the better form of money?

Bitcoin is an unusual, and new form of money, but that doesn't change that it's money. And as you said, money has value.

Not quite true. The dollar bill has value partly because it is backed by the US government.

...and I would argue that it is no more money than an ear of corn, except that ear of corn physically exists and has value besides being an ear of corn.
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