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post #51 of 57
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Originally Posted by Tippy View Post

If anything it points out a pretty huge flaw with WoW's subscription still costing the same as what it did several years ago while a game like GW2 manages to keep going while asking NOTHING from it's customers. All it has are measly micro-transactions (100% cosmetic only, not pay-2-win) that I haven't even needed to blow a single cent on despite having played the game for hundreds of hours. I repeat, hundreds of hours of entertainment for $60 (not $200-300+), lest I have to remind you again.

I'd have to disagree with the "100% cosmetic only" comment.

Boosters for experience points points, crafting, PVP glory, karma, and even loot gain (magic find) are more than cosmetic.

Vastly increased bank slots from the measly amount you start with is more than cosmetic.

Gathering tools which are the equivalent of the best in the game that will never deteriorate no matter how many times you use them (compared to the tools bought in game which deteriorate very quickly) is more than cosmetic.

Being able to pay for gems and convert your gems to gold, and literally buy absolutely anything in the game which can be purchased with gold (consumables, crafting materials, WvW items/upgrades, full exotics/sigils/runes, or a legendary weapon for example) is more than cosmetic.

I can see why people like the model, and I'm not knocking it completely. There's definitely value in a sub free game, but there's often going to be all sorts of extra perks and enhancements (or in some cases an instant leap) to progression to entice people to open their wallets and Guild Wars 2 isn't really an exception to that.
post #52 of 57
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Originally Posted by TheLawIX View Post


To be fair, Diablo 3.....

 

Diablo 3 isn't free to play.

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post #53 of 57
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Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

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Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

This. And it's getting more and more of a tedious grind fest, because World of Warcraft had vast and amazing lore to be built upon. That's why it won so much IMO.
Most of the other MMOs have no memorable story whatsoever - it's too shallow for people to even bother reading the quests.
It's also a race of numbers - back in the day people were taking their time when playing WoW. Reading the quests, having fun exploring the world, studying the in-game books placed everywhere, role-play, et cetera. Nowadays it's a race to experience the end content and people do not even bother reading the quests.

To be honest, this argument was always only part of the true picture. The truth is WoW can not be "raw" without clueless players and players can't be "knowledgeable" about the game without avoiding it being "raw". To translate what I'm saying is that Everyone was clueless in Vanilla and most of newer players clueless up to TBC. Simply nobody knew how to play the game. Hell, Blizzard didn't know how to play their own game: classes were completely broken, some were doing the job of 4 other classes combined or others were completely tedious to play with (e.g. the common example of paladins being useful + doing nothing but just applying their buf, during actual raiding). What I want to conclude with is that when the majority of gamers knew how to "beat" the game from mid-TBC onwards (they didn't even have to do it themselves, Guides were better and the web started giving everyone direct instructions about everything), the game had to make it more "streamlined". It was not a benefit anymore to keep everything raw and unstructured because a simple web guide would make you "beat" the game with a 90% quickness boost compared to a new player. It was not Blizzard's fault strictly, because they simply couldn't control the web giving info to everyone - or the addons doing it - so they had to make it more 'in a straight line and restricted' for all players to avoid the "pre-knowledge advantage". e.g. Questhelper had to be eventually killed and replaced by Blizzard's version that was forced by default because it was simply unacceptable that older players would have a 90% boost in performance compared to new players without a quest helper at all.

So, while Blizzard did simplify it and "streamlined" it, they were also partially forced to due to web guides and addons that were spectacularly efficient after mid-TBC.

Though it's not totally bad, since they still allow some very hard content, if one opt-ins for it of course.

Of course, they are still guilty they require tasks a 6 year old can do to progress end game..

However, you have to admit that the story itself, the quest chains, everything was so interesting. The events were amazing, the outdoor encounters, the grand openings (remember AQ, remember Maws?) - it was a completely unique atmosphere. Then came the raids - we often had our Ventrilo dead silent, everybody completely mesmerized by the dialogues; after which we often gathered in the Lounge room, discussing the lore. I miss those times.
Yes, and the early state of the game is what I really enjoyed the most. Because people who would really dedicate their time and efforts into the game - studying and progressing through it would eventually get rewarded.
Then came the huge QQ tsunami of people who were too busy with their real lives in order to spend all that time in the game, then the people complaining about how they couldn't finish the end-game content pre-expansion because it "was made for hardcore gamers".
Surely I understand them, but WoW was supposed to be hard, you had to dedicate a lot of time into it.
The problem is that with such massive subscription base - well over 10M people, it is only normal that a huge chunk would be casuals. I've sacrificed a lot for WoW as it was (especially pre-WotLK and before the nerfbat of Hyjal/Black Temple and Sunwell; removal of attunements, etc) and I felt it was unfair that so many players, including me, were evened out with casual gamers, just because it was too hard for them and things were eventually dumbed down, completely demolishing the glory of the hardcore gamer - the gear we had, the reputation, even the PvP ranks - it was all but gone.

WotLK was when things became a gear-check and a DPS race; yet there was some skill (read: theorycraft) required. Cataclysm and MoP I do not even wish to discuss.
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post #54 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
However, you have to admit that the story itself, the quest chains, everything was so interesting. The events were amazing, the outdoor encounters, the grand openings (remember AQ, remember Maws?) - it was a completely unique atmosphere. Then came the raids - we often had our Ventrilo dead silent, everybody completely mesmerized by the dialogues; after which we often gathered in the Lounge room, discussing the lore. I miss those times.
Yes, and the early state of the game is what I really enjoyed the most. Because people who would really dedicate their time and efforts into the game - studying and progressing through it would eventually get rewarded.
Then came the huge QQ tsunami of people who were too busy with their real lives in order to spend all that time in the game, then the people complaining about how they couldn't finish the end-game content pre-expansion because it "was made for hardcore gamers".
Surely I understand them, but WoW was supposed to be hard, you had to dedicate a lot of time into it.
The problem is that with such massive subscription base - well over 10M people, it is only normal that a huge chunk would be casuals. I've sacrificed a lot for WoW as it was (especially pre-WotLK and before the nerfbat of Hyjal/Black Temple and Sunwell; removal of attunements, etc) and I felt it was unfair that so many players, including me, were evened out with casual gamers, just because it was too hard for them and things were eventually dumbed down, completely demolishing the glory of the hardcore gamer - the gear we had, the reputation, even the PvP ranks - it was all but gone.

WotLK was when things became a gear-check and a DPS race; yet there was some skill (read: theorycraft) required. Cataclysm and MoP I do not even wish to discuss.
Weren't ever bothered with the lore, just remember being very amazed by how big the "world" was and how cool it looked the first time I played the game.
Vinilla was mainly hard due too the amount of people in the raids.
The Burning Crusade was mainly hard/hardcore if you were going for high world rankings. Of course there were a few boss encounters which were challenging for different reasons, some was overtuned or even bugged (Hello t5)
But all in all if you had the right people 3 days of "casual" raiding a week would do the job for the most part of that expansion. I can't really tell what you mean by hardcore or casuals, because there's very different opinions about that. Some might find 3 days a week hardcore, others may find 5 days+ hardcore other's seem to think that anyone who raids is a hardcore.
Casuals vise versa.
The only reason I enjoyed Wotlk was due to Ulduar which I find to be the best content ever created by Blizzard. It was challenging for any player. Hardcore or Casual didn't really matter, because it had a challenge for the both of them.
Before most guilds (Even top world ranking guilds) had finished ulduar (YS0) they rushed the worst content patch ever released and even stayed with some of the stuff they'd released in that patch till this day.

The game really ended for me after the first half of Wotlk.. Totgc was bad content and didn't deliver the quality content I had just seen in ulduar.
So I basicly went all out casual and just played for the social aspect of it. A lot of the class changes that was made simplified the different classes too much in my opinion and made them too similar. A lot of abilities were suddenly available on multiple classes.
Then there's the 10/25man raiding giving the same reward in terms of loot and achievements basicly making 25man obsolete.


The whole arguement that Blizzard isn't creating hard enough content isn't true and/or a legitimate excuse in my honest opinion. The content have been getting harder expansion by expansion, There's just different levels of challenges for different levels of players.

I've raided hardcore and honestly I couldn't care less if the casuals got to see the content after I had cleared it.. Didn't bother me still wouldn't do to this day. If you're a hardcore it's the world ranking that counts.. wether it be raiding or arena.

As always this is a matter of opinion tho. and Everyone is entitled to their opinion!
post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnigmaMH View Post

quote (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragamemnon View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
However, you have to admit that the story itself, the quest chains, everything was so interesting. The events were amazing, the outdoor encounters, the grand openings (remember AQ, remember Maws?) - it was a completely unique atmosphere. Then came the raids - we often had our Ventrilo dead silent, everybody completely mesmerized by the dialogues; after which we often gathered in the Lounge room, discussing the lore. I miss those times.
Yes, and the early state of the game is what I really enjoyed the most. Because people who would really dedicate their time and efforts into the game - studying and progressing through it would eventually get rewarded.
Then came the huge QQ tsunami of people who were too busy with their real lives in order to spend all that time in the game, then the people complaining about how they couldn't finish the end-game content pre-expansion because it "was made for hardcore gamers".
Surely I understand them, but WoW was supposed to be hard, you had to dedicate a lot of time into it.
The problem is that with such massive subscription base - well over 10M people, it is only normal that a huge chunk would be casuals. I've sacrificed a lot for WoW as it was (especially pre-WotLK and before the nerfbat of Hyjal/Black Temple and Sunwell; removal of attunements, etc) and I felt it was unfair that so many players, including me, were evened out with casual gamers, just because it was too hard for them and things were eventually dumbed down, completely demolishing the glory of the hardcore gamer - the gear we had, the reputation, even the PvP ranks - it was all but gone.

WotLK was when things became a gear-check and a DPS race; yet there was some skill (read: theorycraft) required. Cataclysm and MoP I do not even wish to discuss.
Weren't ever bothered with the lore, just remember being very amazed by how big the "world" was and how cool it looked the first time I played the game.
Vinilla was mainly hard due too the amount of people in the raids.
The Burning Crusade was mainly hard/hardcore if you were going for high world rankings. Of course there were a few boss encounters which were challenging for different reasons, some was overtuned or even bugged (Hello t5)
But all in all if you had the right people 3 days of "casual" raiding a week would do the job for the most part of that expansion. I can't really tell what you mean by hardcore or casuals, because there's very different opinions about that. Some might find 3 days a week hardcore, others may find 5 days+ hardcore other's seem to think that anyone who raids is a hardcore.
Casuals vise versa.
The only reason I enjoyed Wotlk was due to Ulduar which I find to be the best content ever created by Blizzard. It was challenging for any player. Hardcore or Casual didn't really matter, because it had a challenge for the both of them.
Before most guilds (Even top world ranking guilds) had finished ulduar (YS0) they rushed the worst content patch ever released and even stayed with some of the stuff they'd released in that patch till this day.

The game really ended for me after the first half of Wotlk.. Totgc was bad content and didn't deliver the quality content I had just seen in ulduar.
So I basicly went all out casual and just played for the social aspect of it. A lot of the class changes that was made simplified the different classes too much in my opinion and made them too similar. A lot of abilities were suddenly available on multiple classes.
Then there's the 10/25man raiding giving the same reward in terms of loot and achievements basicly making 25man obsolete.


The whole arguement that Blizzard isn't creating hard enough content isn't true and/or a legitimate excuse in my honest opinion. The content have been getting harder expansion by expansion, There's just different levels of challenges for different levels of players.

I've raided hardcore and honestly I couldn't care less if the casuals got to see the content after I had cleared it.. Didn't bother me still wouldn't do to this day. If you're a hardcore it's the world ranking that counts.. wether it be raiding or arena.

As always this is a matter of opinion tho. and Everyone is entitled to their opinion!

Yes, of course, and I don't mean to argue on this. thumb.gif
What we considered 'hardcore' was back in the TBC days, working our way on Vashj and Kael mostly, when we spent 5 nights a week, six hours per raid. Some weeks we raided every night. We had a serious talk with all of the guild members discussing it and everybody agreed to it. Our guild highlight was being #3 in Europe but that was in WotLK.
And this is what I mean by it was hard then, and now isn't. Progress kills took a lot. Encounters dictated that nobody did any mistakes. Focus was required, discipline was required. We weren't that much dependent on gear. It was about awareness, reactions and following the raid leader to the point. I mean, fights were tough. They were long, phases were so diverse, transitions were hard and every single phase was intensive, requiring sometimes a completely different approach from the previous one.

And regarding TBC progress, we weren't competing, nor were we in the top bracket. Rank - ~#10 at best (give or take a couple). But we were dedicated, we put a lot of efforts, and it was showing. And in the end of the expansion people started getting frustrated because SWP was already coming out and the majority of the guilds hadn't even killed the Illidari Council / Reliquary of Souls. So they nerfed it and eventually everybody ended up in full T6 by the start of WotLK. When TBC came out we proudly wore our T3; the elite of the elite even had the ring - and it was a couple of people per realm.
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post #56 of 57
Diablo 3 was such a letdown, they are going to have to win me over with whatever's next
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post #57 of 57
I honesty don't care any more about "titan". I've heard blizzard talk up this game for years. I'm a vanilla tester..Yes Tester. And played the game alot from Vanilla to Wrath. I just could not do it any more. between changing interests and the fact I was tired of blizzard catering towards the casuals I just didn't care. Didn't play Cata, and of course didn't play Kung Fu Panda either.

I can already tell Titan will focus on the casual gamers. They have moved WOW massively into that direction that I cannot see them suddenly switching back to the methods of old. Hard raids, massive groups, chain quests for attunements, ect. I LOVED the BWL chain I needed to complete to even ENTER the dungeon. Now, you can click a button, and get access into whatever you want.
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