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They said it can help a lot.

They did not say that it is a particularly great option.

If we are going to argue that something is better than nothing, then indeed 300 is "sufficient' for most situations. Unlike the absurd idea that a fuse or a breaker is somehow better than nothing, which it isn't.

I have a significant problem with that NIST post. Surges are not a problem of too much current. If they were, a breaker would be enough. You can have 50 thousand amps at 120v available on a circuit, but if it doesn't have anywhere to go, there will never be any problem. I would like to see the source of the information in that post you quoted.

You cannot "force" current. Current is drawn only. Current does not kill electronics, because the electronics will only draw as much current as they need at a given voltage. This is why you can hook up a car battery with nearly 1000 amps to a 12v LED light on a PCB that isn't capable of handling more than 1 amp (12w, assuming 12v nominal voltage) and not burn it out.

The current is available, but it never does anything without increasing voltage. Only when you increase the voltage does the LED in question start pulling more current than it can handle and burning up its PCB. Typically it will easily be able to handle up to 14v, getting a bit brighter as it goes, and consuming more current (which, as a function of voltage equals wattage), and getting warmer and warmer as the voltage, and thereby current demand, goes up.

Current is what damages things, but voltage increases are what drives current up, and breakers, fuses, etc. do not protect against voltage spikes. I want to see this supposed research, because what was said does not jive with how electricity works.

Amperage is the absolute last concern when one is talking about power surges, because only when there is a place for that current to go does it actually flow.

However, a difference of just 10v in a household line can potentially damage delicate equipment, and it is possible, easily I might add, for a 10v difference to exceed the 300 joule capacity of a surge protector.

In order for you to increase current through a device, you need to increase load (which does not happen in functional electronics) or you increase the voltage you are feeding to it. Do you see why the comment about "10,000A" is out of place?

I don't feel like doing the math, and it is indeed true that a 300 joule unit will protect you from most issues, why would you bother to save 12 or 15 bucks vs a significantly better option when you have potentially thousands of dollars worth of hardware to protect?
Edited by Masta Squidge - 8/3/13 at 4:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larymoencurlyÂ

Quote:
Originally Posted by larymoencurlyÂ

A 300 joule protector can apparently help a lot, and a message at AnandTech.com said this about joule ratings:

"The author of the NIST surge guide investigated how much energy might be absorbed in a MOV in a plug-in protector. The surge on incoming power wires was up to 10,000A (the largest surge with any reasonable probability of occurring, as above). The maximum energy at the MOV was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. (There are a couple reasons why the energy is so small, if anyone is interested.)

NIST = National Institute of Standards and Technology

Quote:
Originally Posted by looniamÂ

300 joules is NOT a lot, its rather bare minimum actually. keep in mind that is the HIGHEST level of protection before any surge above that will blow past the MOV (the "relief valve") straight to your components.

here is one of those "how it works" explanations - not overly technical but sufficient:
How Surge Protectors Work
Do you have a source as authoritative as NIST to support your claim that 300 joules isn't a sufficient energy rating for a surge protector?

ah, do you?
i see a "copy/paste" of a quote from a forum discussion where someone stated research without a citation/link, i believe in the court of law it's called hearsay. nor would any self respecting member of the scientific community consider it credible. seriously, stating "the author" without giving a name would receive some scoffing to say the least. so excuse me if i give more credibility to a "how stuff works" article.

so please provide what you demand before you demand it from me.

edit: i mean THE SOURCE of the investigation.
Edited by looniam - 8/3/13 at 4:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looniamÂ

ah, do you?
i see a "copy/paste" of a quote from a forum discussion where someone stated research without a citation/link, i believe in the court of law it's called hearsay. nor would any self respecting member of the scientific community consider it credible. seriously, stating "the author" without giving a name would receive some scoffing to say the least. so excuse me if i give more credibility to a "how stuff works" article.

so please provide what you demand before you demand it from me.

edit: i mean THE SOURCE of the investigation.
Courts of law aren't courts of science, technology, or even truth. Courts of law are concerned far more about "proper" procedures, including use of the correct pretty color for the paper, rather than facts and logic.

I made no secret that I had copied and pasted the quote -- that's why I used quotation marks and italics. And my quote refers to engineer who mentioned NIST (quoted) and IEEE (not quoted), and the NIST guide mentioned was by IEEE fellow FranÃ§oisD.Martzloff. OTOH you cited an article from How Stuff Works that made this pretty obvious mistake:

"A few surge protector products suppress surges with a series circuit design -- the extra electricity isn't shunted to another line, but instead is slowed on its way through the hot line. Basically, these suppressors detect when there is high voltage and then store the electricity, releasing it gradually." (emphasis mine)
What is the typical high voltage threshhold of such series circuit design surge protectors?

The IEEE consumer guide to lightning protection: http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf doesn't seem to like joule ratings because specifications are nonstandardized (p. 25). Eaton, a maker of residential and commercial surge protectors, says:

"13. Why Joules and response time are irrelevant specifications?

Joule ratings are not an approved specification for surge protective devices. IEEE, IEC and NEMA do not recommend using Joule ratings when specifying or comparing surge suppressors, because they can provide misleading and conflicting information. For example, on a 120V system, a 150V or 175V MOV could be
used. Even though the 175V MOV has a higher Joule rating, the 150V has a much lower let-through voltage and offers better surge protection. Joule ratings are a function of let-through voltage, surge current and surge duration (time). Each manufacturer may use a different standard surge wave when publishing Joules.
Given the confusion regarding Joule ratings, the power quality industry does not recommend the use of Joule ratings in performance specifications."

Eaton does recommend 250,000 amps of protection per phase for very long lifespan, but most whole house surge protectors are rated around 20,000-50,000 amps.

It also seems that wiring MOVs in parallel to boost joule ratings, as is done with a lot of power strip surge protectors, isn't considered as good as using bigger MOVs.
Edited by larymoencurly - 8/4/13 at 12:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larymoencurlyÂ

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Courts of law aren't courts of science, technology, or even truth. Courts of law are concerned far more about "proper" procedures, including use of the correct pretty color for the paper, rather than facts and logic.

I made no secret that I had copied and pasted the quote -- that's why I used quotation marks and italics. And my quote refers to engineer who mentioned NIST (quoted) and IEEE (not quoted), and the NIST guide mentioned was by IEEE fellow FranÃ§oisD.Martzloff. OTOH you cited an article from How Stuff Works that made this pretty obvious mistake:

"A few surge protector products suppress surges with a series circuit design -- the extra electricity isn't shunted to another line, but instead is slowed on its way through the hot line. Basically, these suppressors detect when there is high voltage and then store the electricity, releasing it gradually." (emphasis mine)
What is the typical high voltage threshhold of such series circuit design surge protectors?

The IEEE consumer guide to lightning protection: http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf doesn't seem to like joule ratings because specifications are nonstandardized (p. 25). Eaton, a maker of residential and commercial surge protectors, says:

"13. Why Joules and response time are irrelevant specifications?

Joule ratings are not an approved specification for surge protective devices. IEEE, IEC and NEMA do not recommend using Joule ratings when specifying or comparing surge suppressors, because they can provide misleading and conflicting information. For example, on a 120V system, a 150V or 175V MOV could be
used. Even though the 175V MOV has a higher Joule rating, the 150V has a much lower let-through voltage and offers better surge protection. Joule ratings are a function of let-through voltage, surge current and surge duration (time). Each manufacturer may use a different standard surge wave when publishing Joules.
Given the confusion regarding Joule ratings, the power quality industry does not recommend the use of Joule ratings in performance specifications."

Eaton does recommend 250,000 amps of protection per phase for very long lifespan, but most whole house surge protectors are rated around 20,000-50,000 amps.

It also seems that wiring MOVs in parallel to boost joule ratings, as is done with a lot of power strip surge protectors, isn't considered as good as using bigger MOVs.

so you have no source but an explanation why you can't find it. seriously you stated that according to an NIST guide that 35 joules was the maximum given of off an MOV but then say but the NIST doesn't like to measure joules?

and to answer your question, well you claim it was a mistake by the HSW article, not all power protection is the same so the threshold will be different - the article does clearly tell you how to find the threshold by reading the UL label - sorry you missed that. though i did specifically state it was not too technical - considering the author has a B.A. in english i wouldn't expect much of than proper grammar but from my first hand experience; it's a good "primer".

but that is different than the point. the threshold (clamping voltage) is when the protection will kick in, the rating of the MOV is how much protection there is once the threshold is exceeded. methinks you are mixing the two up. at the end of the day, i will not advise anyone to trust a part/component that costs less than \$0.50 with what could cost up to several thousands of dollars of electronics.

sorry if you have a problem with that.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looniamÂ

so you have no source but an explanation why you can't find it. seriously you stated that according to an NIST guide that 35 joules was the maximum given of off an MOV but then say but the NIST doesn't like to measure joules?

and to answer your question, well you claim it was a mistake by the HSW article, not all power protection is the same so the threshold will be different - the article does clearly tell you how to find the threshold by reading the UL label - sorry you missed that. though i did specifically state it was not too technical - considering the author has a B.A. in english i wouldn't expect much of than proper grammar but from my first hand experience; it's a good "primer".

but that is different than the point. the threshold (clamping voltage) is when the protection will kick in, the rating of the MOV is how much protection there is once the threshold is exceeded. methinks you are mixing the two up. at the end of the day, i will not advise anyone to trust a part/component that costs less than \$0.50 with what could cost up to several thousands of dollars of electronics.

sorry if you have a problem with that.

Actually people do trust expensive electronics to <\$0.50 protection components, as a search for MOVs in the Digi-key catalog shows.

I said an engineer in an Anandtech forum quoted NIST and IEEE, and he said 35J was the highest energy level measured for any surge. But industry doesn't like energy ratings because they're not stated in a standardized way. The UL 1449 voltage rating wasn't considered too important by Eaton because almost all electronics can stand way more than the 330VAC minimum threshhold that so many companies like to brag about, and that voltage isn't a good indicator of the actual protection offered.

You failed to address the mistake made in the How Stuff Works article about surge protectors, so I'll ask about it again: What is the typical high voltage threshhold of the series circuit design surge protectors mentioned in that article?
Quote:
Originally Posted by larymoencurlyÂ

Actually people do trust expensive electronics to <\$0.50 protection components, as a search for MOVs in the Digi-key catalog shows.

I said an engineer in an Anandtech forum quoted NIST and IEEE, and he said 35J was the highest energy level measured for any surge. But industry doesn't like energy ratings because they're not stated in a standardized way. The UL 1449 voltage rating wasn't considered too important by Eaton because almost all electronics can stand way more than the 330VAC minimum threshhold that so many companies like to brag about, and that voltage isn't a good indicator of the actual protection offered.

You failed to address the mistake made in the How Stuff Works article about surge protectors, so I'll ask about it again: What is the typical high voltage threshhold of the series circuit design surge protectors mentioned in that article?
actually people make a lot of mistakes and do stupid things they are not aware they are doing - so does that make it ok? NO. too bad you have a problem that i advise against it.

and to be honest you seem to have some problems; you don't understand that i asked of you what you demanded of me, some documentation to back up your claim. its all fine and dandy if you want to quote a forum post, though linking to it is rather customary, but fine. where is the source? you said tomWes stated a NIST surge guide, ok, where is the guide?

and now you want to come up with some garbage that almost all electronics can handle a 330VAC jolt? i can't count on my fingers and toes how many audio/video companies are glad you never handled their gear along with countless musicians.

so sorry, again, if you think i didn't answer your question but i am done wasting my time

cheers.
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Can someone sum up whats been going on in my thread
Oh just the keyboard experts bickering, they'll run out of steam soon
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