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[Official] Case PHANTEKS Case Club for lovers & owners - Page 1492

post #14911 of 19204
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Luxe has as much cable management as Pro. They are the same case with different front and top covers. tongue.gif
And they have plenty of cable management space. Some peeps get braided cable extensions in their choice of color and still get them all hidden.

Did you mean the Primo?

I was comparing cable management space left over after installing a CEB motherbaord like the X99-e WS on Luxe vs Primo.
post #14912 of 19204
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Do you think that because someone owns a Ford, their Ford is similar to all other Fords? I own a 65' Ford half ton pickup with a 6 cylinder engine. I have a buddy who owns a new GT 40. They have very little in common and neither do our cases. The same thing applies to what is in them; my pickup hasn't got anything in it like the GT 40 does. Again, they have little in common, and neither do our case components.

I'm sorry, but I don't know how you should setup your system.

If someone has to apologize it is me.wink.gif My problem was that I did not know which part of the airflow-controls/setup gave me questions. So I needed some guidance formulating the questions better first and then answers later on (something like that, see below). Thanks again!


Quote:
Originally Posted by RnRollie View Post

$ 0.02
While your MB might have 3 PWM headers, the question is if you are able to set 3 different fan profiles (one per header) or do they all link back to CPU temp?

For sake of simplicity... having ALL fans controlled by ONE controller/splitter is in most cases the best way to go...
When your CPU gets hotter.. ALL case fans ramp up, and if you have correctly set up (balanced) your intake & exhaust fans that is all there is to it.
Unless you are doyll and have half of your fans controlled by the GPU iso the CPU biggrin.gif

In most cases the Phanteks PWM-TO-Voltage fanhub is all you need.

Now I have the feeling that I am on the right track!thumb.gif My mobo has got a hardware monitor in the bios and software to control fanspeeds based on casetemps and/or cpu temps. See 2 pages from manual below.

The button on the p400s case i.c.m. the fancontroller, that is where my confusion started. It has three settings (high-mid-low) which implies that the button overrides or alters the output of the pwm-signal from the mobo or the fancontroller is not the same fancontroller that is installed in more expensive phanteks cases like yours or fancontroller is the same but the button-input replaces the mobo's pwm signal connection. I like having a computer that can raise the rpm of casefans when temperatures reach a certain limit automatically, but i have doubts that the p400s fancontroller also grants the mobo the possibility to override the button-input. I hope this clarifies my initial questions.

- I rather connect 5 Scythe pwm-fans directly to the motherboard in a p400 (without fancontroller, button and soundproofing), if the mobo is not able to adjust the rpm of casefans through the fancontroller in the p400s case;
- If the mobo can adjust the rpm of fans through the fancontroller in the p400s case when the temperatures get to high, even when the button-input is on low, then i will go with 5 standard Be Quiet fans (3p fans & the p400s case, this is my preffered option if possible).

As you can see, how the fancontroller and the button interact, decides which fans I am going to buy but also which casemodel (p400 or the p400s).
Two pictures on manual (Click to show)

Edit/add 1 :

I found a review of the fancontroller. It states that it sucked back in 2015. When the pwm signal was 20%, the fans got 10.7V. This would mean that the fans always ran at speeds between 90% and 100%. Is this problem solved? If so, what voltage are the fans running at minimum now?

http://forums.vr-zone.com/hardware-depot/3167542-phanteks-pwm-fan-controller-hub-review.html

Edit/add 2 :

looking at a picture the fanhub, I highly doubt that the pwm signal can override the button-input. So, I will not go for a p400s with 3p fans, but the p400 with pwm fans.
Most people buy expensive fans with too much capacity and then need to reduce the noiselevels put out through a controller to make it more bearable. I however have selected fans based on maximum noiselevels, so controlling fans myself to improve silence should hopefully not be needed.


Explaining my questions about stuff I do not understand very well is not one of my strong suits.Thanks again for all your efforts and patience.

Edited by Scoobydoobydoo - 8/26/16 at 5:29pm
post #14913 of 19204
Thread Starter 
@Scoobydoobydoo
The Eclipse P400 does not have the PWM fan hub. It has a 3 position switch with one position full 12v and the other two at progressively lower voltage.

The Phanteks PWM fan hub is not a PWM fan hub at all, but a PWM controlled variable voltage fan hub for 3-pin fans. It uses the PWM signal to vary the power to 3-pin variable voltage fans. It is not made for controlling PWM fans.

The small price difference between P400 / P400S and Enthoo Pro / Pro M case makes me wonder if it might be better to spend a few more dollars and get the Pro or Pro M case. Enthoo Pro an Enthoo Luxe use the same case with different front and top panels. Enthoo Pro M and Enthoo Evolv ATX use the same internal case with different panels.

Motherboard fan headers are typically rated to supply up to about 1 amp / 12 watt of power per header. I lower that by 15-20% for added safety to 0.8 amp / 9.6 watt. Most fans are rated 1-3 watt so we can almost always run 3x fans on a sinlge fan header. The exceptions to this are some of the high performance fans like TY-143 rated 0.60 amp, FHP141 rated 0.65 amp, Gentle Typhoon 2150 rated 0.63 amp, Gentle Typhoon 1850 rated 0.44 amp, etc. The problem is that some fans are rated at maximum power rating (like when starting up) while others are rated only at there normal running power rating which is about 1/4th of their strartup power rating. Sorry it's so complicated and confusing, but I think it's things you need to know.

Don't base your fan selection based on fan specifications. The specs are not accurate and are also not taken in normal use. the dB(A) and CFM readings are taken in a no load / no resistance open air environment .. nothing like being mounted in a case. In normal use they are much louder with much lower airflow. The static pressure rating is the maximum force the fan can push when air stops moving. Again this is not the way we use our fans. I suggest you look at a good fan reviewer's testing and evaluations .. someone like geggeg who has Thermalbench review site. His airflow to sound graphs are the airflow and sound fans make when mounted on a radiator. There are also rpm to sound and rpm to airflow graphs, but I like the sound to airflow graph because it give me an idea of sound level the fan makes when flowing a given amount of air. Geggeg uses FPM (Feet Per Minute) rather than CFM. CFM is the air speed times the area of airflow. This is very hard to accurately measure because the air moves at different speeds depending on where it is monitored, and if an airflow straightener is used it is restricting the airflow while straightening it .. and restricting the airflow to a specific size hole is restricting it as well. More variables involved means more possibility for error in results. Besides, the radiator does a pretty good job of straightening / balancing the airflow. wink.gif

I think I've said enough to confuse you sufficiently for today. tongue.gif
post #14914 of 19204
@doyll Thanks!!

Fanselection
I use the hardware.info roundups below. They test hundreds of 120mm and 140mm fans at: 12V+radiator, 7V, 7V+radiator, Airflow@30dB(A)+radiator. In their "comparison prices section" you can even compare fans and see the individual testresults from these tests, it is quite handy.

https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/6622/tested-71-case-fans-of-140-mm-round-up-big-fans
https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/5770/103-12cm-case-fans-review

I used "Airflow@30dB(A)+radiator test" to select fans that are inside a case like the Intake-fans in a p400. Fans on the outside of a case I selected from the "7V (no radiator) test", because I want them to be silent as possible because I can directly hear those going about (exhaust fans normally do not have dustfilters, so i chose to select it from the list without a radiator). By selecting fans in this way, I can choose the best fansetup for me. Most of the time Be-Quiet and Scythe are2 or 3 times cheaper then a fansetup from noctua or Noiseblockers. Although both brands have awesome fans and packaging, performance in most round-ups is nearly identical.

If I look at the hardware.info 120mm comparison table or their 140mm comparison table I can even find maximum powerdraw at 12V under these testconditions.

Exhaust fans = three 120mm Scythe Slip Stream 120 DB PWM = 2.1W@12V each
Intake fans = two Scythe GlideStream 140mm = approx. 2.1V@12V (this powerdraw i took from the slipstream 1200rpm pwm fan, if vertically mounted i prefer sleeve over ball bearings)

With 3 pwm headers on my mobo, I do not think any problems will occur, until proven otherwise ofcourse.

In general
What I like about 3p setups is that it is alot easier to select fans, because you can see how much noise they make under certain conditions in comparison to other fans (like in the roundsups above). If we use those fans at a fixed rpm, then we know prehand how much (or less) noise it will make. It should be (nearly) silent and you can basically not screw it up, noisewise. But the drawback is that noiselevel is not the same as the temperature of components. It is the automatic controls of fanspeeds when heat builds up, that I prefer, just to be safe. That is why i prefer pwm in this example of the p400(s) case.

Casechoices
The Enthoo Pro M Acrylic is a really nice case, but is 56 liters and costs 85 euro. I liked the 65 euro pricerange where atx cases are around 35 to 45 liters, the p400 and S340 are big competitors here (both have alot of descent reviews). But in multiple reviews I read that the window on the s340 gets scratched even when you wipe dust of it with some cloth and same goes for the painjob. The p400 does not have the same negative experiences mentioned, which indicates to me that the case should have a slightly higher quality finish and materials used. DANG!thumb.gif

I still like the p400s because it has some soundproofing, but having a button in sight which i can not use if I choose pwm fans is a bit "mister-bean-like". So, I will go with the p400 and if the noise from the harddisks is annoying me, then I will buy some industrial A-grade soundproofing (I do not believe that the quality of soundproofing in the p400s is A-grade quality for only 10 euro more). I think Phanteks p400 and the p400s are fine cases, probably "best bang for buck" around the 65/70 euro pricerange because of the higher quality of materials used, even better then the s340.

p400 and pwm fans it is!

Thanks everyone, my apologies for having problems explaining my doubts and questions in this topic. Thanks again!thumb.gif
Edited by Scoobydoobydoo - 8/27/16 at 3:24am
post #14915 of 19204
Thread Starter 
@Scoobydoobydoo
I don't know how good uk.hardware.info is, but while testing 120mm fans on a 2 meter long 120mm tube with a bunch of drinking straws grouped in the middle may be good, using the same for 140mm fans is not. 120mm fans have an ID of cc 115 mm compared to 140mm fans with an ID of cc 137 mm. 120 mm ID tube. While the 113.04 sq cm of area 12 cm ID tube is more than 120 mm fan's 103.82 sq cm 109.5%), 140 mm fan's 147.34 sq cm aea is 130.34% bigger than their test tube. Sure, we can calculate the CFM just as they say, but we have no idea how much lower the pressure in because of the resistance. involved. This means there is no way we can compare their 120mm fan testing to 140mm fan testing. Also keep in mind their testing is pulling air into fan, not pushing air .. this creates negative pressure, not positive pressure.

At least with a radiator using adapter plates to mount either 120mm or 140mm fan for testing gives us the same resistance to airflow for both fans.

I've debated making a fan airflow test tube using 20-30cm tubing and decided against it. Accurately testing fans is way too complected to be taken lightly, and a proper fan test system is very, very, very expensive to build or buy.

And as I said before. how much noise the fans make moving the air needed to cool is more important to me than what their rpm is. I can hear the noise and feel the heat, but rpm is numbers on a screen. biggrin.gif

Same can be said for the voltage and/or amperage the fan is using.

The sound coming out of our systems and the heat dissipated by the airflow (FPM airflow are what wel live with. RPM may cause noise, but it's the noise level at the airflow level we need to keep things cool that make the difference.

Also keep in mind dB / dB(A) are pressure wave readings, and while the do have meaning, the actual sound in frequency is what we hear. While a 33dB sound is a fixed sound pressure measurement, the actual sound we hear may be a pleasant hum or a very unpleasant high pitched screech. dB does not take how the sound feels or impacts us into account.

This is compounded by it being much eaiser to dampen higher frequencies than lower ones. We can hear a drum sound from a great distance, but a bird chirp of same dB is lost in a fraction of that distance.
post #14916 of 19204
I have a question, I have the Enthoo pro M. Do I need to cover the unused slots on the radiator/fan bracket? I have 280mm rad installed to it.
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post #14917 of 19204
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

@Scoobydoobydoo
I don't know how good uk.hardware.info is, but while testing 120mm fans on a 2 meter long 120mm tube with a bunch of drinking straws grouped in the middle may be good, using the same for 140mm fans is not. 120mm fans have an ID of cc 115 mm compared to 140mm fans with an ID of cc 137 mm. 120 mm ID tube. While the 113.04 sq cm of area 12 cm ID tube is more than 120 mm fan's 103.82 sq cm 109.5%), 140 mm fan's 147.34 sq cm aea is 130.34% bigger than their test tube. Sure, we can calculate the CFM just as they say, but we have no idea how much lower the pressure in because of the resistance. involved. This means there is no way we can compare their 120mm fan testing to 140mm fan testing. Also keep in mind their testing is pulling air into fan, not pushing air .. this creates negative pressure, not positive pressure.

At least with a radiator using adapter plates to mount either 120mm or 140mm fan for testing gives us the same resistance to airflow for both fans.

I've debated making a fan airflow test tube using 20-30cm tubing and decided against it. Accurately testing fans is way too complected to be taken lightly, and a proper fan test system is very, very, very expensive to build or buy.

And as I said before. how much noise the fans make moving the air needed to cool is more important to me than what their rpm is. I can hear the noise and feel the heat, but rpm is numbers on a screen. biggrin.gif

Same can be said for the voltage and/or amperage the fan is using.

The sound coming out of our systems and the heat dissipated by the airflow (FPM airflow are what wel live with. RPM may cause noise, but it's the noise level at the airflow level we need to keep things cool that make the difference.

Also keep in mind dB / dB(A) are pressure wave readings, and while the do have meaning, the actual sound in frequency is what we hear. While a 33dB sound is a fixed sound pressure measurement, the actual sound we hear may be a pleasant hum or a very unpleasant high pitched screech. dB does not take how the sound feels or impacts us into account.

This is compounded by it being much eaiser to dampen higher frequencies than lower ones. We can hear a drum sound from a great distance, but a bird chirp of same dB is lost in a fraction of that distance.

All true, but atleast all the fans were tested under the same conditions. It is a nice tool to help people compare fans under similar conditions, instead of just guessing or choosing based on rumours.
post #14918 of 19204
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmeatballs View Post

I have a question, I have the Enthoo pro M. Do I need to cover the unused slots on the radiator/fan bracket? I have 280mm rad installed to it.

That is for people with the Evolv ATX, with the restrictive top case exhaust vents if you don't block the slots around the radiator you get hot air blown down into the case. With the regular vent design of the Pro M I can't imagine that would be a problem.
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post #14919 of 19204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobydoobydoo View Post

All true, but atleast all the fans were tested under the same conditions. It is a nice tool to help people compare fans under similar conditions, instead of just guessing or choosing based on rumours.
Which was why I suggest Thermalbench fan review .. because we can compare 120mm fans to 140mm fans. wink.gif
post #14920 of 19204
Phanteks Evolv ATX Tempered Glass Silver is NOT AVAILABLE in Europe! How is that possible for a PC case with that price tag of 200€???? Wow....
    
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