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[Official] Case PHANTEKS Case Club for lovers & owners - Page 1760

post #17591 of 17853
Personally, I think 99% of the Evolv's problems could be solved by making the total size of the case bigger (keeping the same aestetic design). Something between a mid and full tower.

I will say though, there are some really odd design choices on this case. I constantly go... "Phanteks could have easily added 1cm more clearance or length or whatever and XYZ problem would not exist."

I think moving the dual psu shroud HDD cages towards the center is an obvious one. Open rails for 120 AND 140 fans on the front, like on the top bracket is another. Using the far less restrictive and far more effective front dust filter on the 10 slats on the top cover is another. Using a more space efficient screw in top fan bracket (like the Elite) vs a sliding one.

I love this case. To my money, it is still the best ATX case <$200. That said, I do think Phanteks made some clear and relatively easy to fix mistakes.
    
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post #17592 of 17853
Thread Starter 
So it's the best in it's class but has faults.
Is there any case that is best in it's class and has no faults? biggrin.gif
I do agree there are several little changes that would make it better, but I have yet to see a case that did not have a lot of things I would have done different. wink.gif
post #17593 of 17853
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

So it's the best in it's class but has faults.
Is there any case that is best in it's class and has no faults? biggrin.gif
I do agree there are several little changes that would make it better, but I have yet to see a case that did not have a lot of things I would have done different. wink.gif

For me it is, but there are a lot of people who value function over form. I don't expect Phanteks to get it right the first or even second time... but for v3 if some of these issues are not addressed, I'll be strongly considering other options.
    
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post #17594 of 17853
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

2 words for you : Gently Typhoon


now if nidec ever made a 140mm GT .... i would use them....
The Gentle Typhoon are definitely very good .. and were the very best of the very best until a few years ago. But in the last few years we have many new fans competing with them, and some are better than GTs. The data shows the PH-F120MP to be 30-50% better at similar rpms. The lower rpm of MP's is it's only limiting factor .. and I assume it's blade design loose it's performance edge at higher rpm.

Here is some Cooling Techniques testing data I organized to show GTs compared to PH-F120MP. Hope it shows what I'm trying to explain .. that the MP is better .. and their blade design is better the lower their speed is .. even at 1600rpm they are move more air with higher pressure differential at lower noise levels than GTs.


first and foremost i am frankly surprised to have to have this conversation with you of all people

besides GTs being time proven with type of sound vs other fans. but the part that surprises me-- is the fact you are using a excessively poor testing procedure
box specs mean nothing, max pressure, static pressure, cfm- useless......
lastly with a PQ chart which phanteks along with most other manufactures refuse to supply, with my experience in what i do i would be willing to bet with pretty good accuracy they would lose to the GTs with their inferior design,

now if you do have a pq chart feel free to prove me wrong. or ask phantek, as they seem fairly open to talking, maybe they will provide a pq chart .... but i wont hold my breath
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post #17595 of 17853
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

first and foremost i am frankly surprised to have to have this conversation with you of all people

besides GTs being time proven with type of sound vs other fans. but the part that surprises me-- is the fact you are using a excessively poor testing procedure
box specs mean nothing, max pressure, static pressure, cfm- useless......
lastly with a PQ chart which phanteks along with most other manufactures refuse to supply, with my experience in what i do i would be willing to bet with pretty good accuracy they would lose to the GTs with their inferior design,

now if you do have a pq chart feel free to prove me wrong. or ask phantek, as they seem fairly open to talking, maybe they will provide a pq chart .... but i wont hold my breath
"First and formost I am franly surprised" by your lack of understanding of what I am presenting and saying. Sound profiles are extremely hard to record and rarely sound like actual fans when played back .. and what 'box specs' are you referring to headscratch.gif .. because I did not post any box specs! tongue.gif

What is 'excessively poor' seems to be your understanding of data rather than what I posted. poke.gif

You of all people should understand independent testing data and how to plot pressure differential and airflow at different fan speeds.
Martin did very good testing, but that was years ago so we have no comparison testing of newer fans.
All joking aside, if you want more current data look at Thermalbench testing. That's all done with radiators showing air speed and noise levels at different RPM .. and verifies what I said about GTs no longer being best of the best, but middle of the pack.


Or CoolingTechnique graphs using data from charts I posted. wink.gif





If you want more graphs, got to http://www.coolingtechnique.com and search for fan you want data on.
Edited by doyll - 4/23/17 at 2:57am
post #17596 of 17853
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

first and foremost i am frankly surprised to have to have this conversation with you of all people

besides GTs being time proven with type of sound vs other fans. but the part that surprises me-- is the fact you are using a excessively poor testing procedure
box specs mean nothing, max pressure, static pressure, cfm- useless......
lastly with a PQ chart which phanteks along with most other manufactures refuse to supply, with my experience in what i do i would be willing to bet with pretty good accuracy they would lose to the GTs with their inferior design,

now if you do have a pq chart feel free to prove me wrong. or ask phantek, as they seem fairly open to talking, maybe they will provide a pq chart .... but i wont hold my breath
"First and formost I am franly surprised" by your lack of understanding of what I am presenting and saying. Sound profiles are extremely hard to record and rarely sound like actual fans when played back .. and what 'box specs' are you referring to headscratch.gif .. because I did not post any box specs! tongue.gif

What is 'excessively poor' seems to be your understanding of data rather than what I posted. poke.gif

You of all people should understand independent testing data and how to plot pressure differential and airflow at different fan speeds.
Martin did very good testing, but that was years ago so we have no comparison testing of newer fans.
All joking aside, if you want more current data look at Thermalbench testing. That's all done with radiators showing air speed and noise levels at different RPM .. and verifies what I said about GTs no longer being best of the best, but middle of the pack.


Or CoolingTechnique graphs using data from charts I posted. wink.gif





If you want more graphs, got to http://www.coolingtechnique.com and search for fan you want data on.

First, " box specs" =this fan had this much cfm at this rpm. You provided allot. Now if you read and understood the article that i linked. You would see what I mean ( ironically pq charts are only valid at rpm tested ) that with varying back pressure the cfm changes as does the pressure from the fan. Just like a pump curve.... go, figure.

Second the graph of cfm through a rad. Again cfm is HALF the picture you can have high cfm and low pressure, which for rads, filters and making positive pressure in pc cases is a BAD thing.

But Lastly while not an argument but frankly food for thought, the sound profile while being subjective, again gentle typhoons sound better to most people who have heard them. Why I don't know... I dont deal with that. One is an industrial fan. Used in industrial things - like office equip. Other is a pc case fan..... which do you think had had more r and d ... Why do you think gts are still considered best for so long... great thing about fans, it's physics based, not tech based, so things don't really change ( same with motors ) - they can - but it is rare

Edit - You edited your statement my response to the new one coming up

Second graph - not a pq chart looks to be left side low rpm to right side high rpm (meaning speed controlled fan) which again does not take into account back pressure (restriction) like a pq chart and again is useless unless you use the fan in the exact scenario as tested, most of these tests are done free standing. With no back pressure (again restriction) so the moment you put them on a rad, heatsink, filter, mesh or combination there of the results are invalid, or the moment you put them on a different one....

Third graph

Thanks? You proved that in real life useage the gt is best not including sound into the equation? ..... :headscratch:
Edited by Mega Man - 4/23/17 at 3:16am
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post #17597 of 17853
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

First, " box specs" =this fan had this much cfm at this rpm. You provided allot. Now if you read and understood the article that i linked. You would see what I mean ( ironically pq charts are only valid at rpm tested ) that with varying back pressure the cfm changes as does the pressure from the fan. Just like a pump curve.... go, figure.

Second the graph of cfm through a rad. Again cfm is HALF the picture you can have high cfm and low pressure, which for rads, filters and making positive pressure in pc cases is a BAD thing.

But Lastly while not an argument but frankly food for thought, the sound profile while being subjective, again gentle typhoons sound better to most people who have heard them. Why I don't know... I dont deal with that. One is an industrial fan. Used in industrial things - like office equip. Other is a pc case fan..... which do you think had had more r and d ... Why do you think gts are still considered best for so long... great thing about fans, it's physics based, not tech based, so things don't really change ( same with motors ) - they can - but it is rare

Edit - You edited your statement my response to the new one coming up

Second graph - not a pq chart looks to be left side low rpm to right side high rpm (meaning speed controlled fan) which again does not take into account back pressure (restriction) like a pq chart and again is useless unless you use the fan in the exact scenario as tested, most of these tests are done free standing. With no back pressure (again restriction) so the moment you put them on a rad, heatsink, filter, mesh or combination there of the results are invalid, or the moment you put them on a different one....

Third graph

Thanks? You proved that in real life useage the gt is best not including sound into the equation? ..... :headscratch:
You seem more bent on arguing than discussing the data / facts and how to understand them. I will try and discuss this one more time.

No, "Box Specs" are what manufacturers put on retail box, not what independent testing gives. Box specs are almost always only full speed no resistance for CFM and full speed total resistance for static pressure.

Making positive pressure in a case is no relevant to this discussion.

Few testing / reviews give complete and accurate P/Q curves simply because the equipment needed to do so is extremely expensive and inaccessible. Even Martin did many tests using radiators as resistance source.

Using a radiator as resistance gives us a reasonable and low cost way of showing how the fan performs with resistance and air speed coming out of radiator gives us a reliable measurement for comparing fan performance .. air speed times cross-sectional area equals CFM, Thermalbench graph shows a fixed resistance to air speed of different fans at different speeds. CoolingTechnique graphs are fixed speed .. but the data I supplied gives rpm range. Your preferred P/Q only gives us pressure and flow at maximum speed. Both help, but neither gives us as much information as we want.

I agree, sound profile is very important. The problem is reproducing it in a way we can listen to it on our computer sound system. Few of us have hi-fi sound systems on our computers and fewer have recording equipment / recording studio equipment needed to record accurate fan sound profiles.

Both graphs from CoolingTechnique are P/Q .. just presented differently. First is max to max, second is max to minimum.

Third graph doesn't have GT on it.
Edited by doyll - 4/23/17 at 4:39am
post #17598 of 17853
I can't really figure out what you two are arguing about, @doyll and @Mega Man.....but it seems to be a fan conversation rather than a Phanteks case conversation. And just my two cents....I tried the GTs, eLoops, Noctua iPPC (which really don't belong in this company with all of the low rpm noise they have) and a few others in my Primo, Luxe and Evolv ATX on the rads. I went back to the F120MP all three times - most pleasing sound profile to my ears, and no performance sacrifice at all.
post #17599 of 17853
Quote:
Originally Posted by paskowitz View Post

Personally, I think 99% of the Evolv's problems could be solved by making the total size of the case bigger (keeping the same aestetic design). Something between a mid and full tower.

I will say though, there are some really odd design choices on this case. I constantly go... "Phanteks could have easily added 1cm more clearance or length or whatever and XYZ problem would not exist."

I think moving the dual psu shroud HDD cages towards the center is an obvious one. Open rails for 120 AND 140 fans on the front, like on the top bracket is another. Using the far less restrictive and far more effective front dust filter on the 10 slats on the top cover is another. Using a more space efficient screw in top fan bracket (like the Elite) vs a sliding one.

I love this case. To my money, it is still the best ATX case <$200. That said, I do think Phanteks made some clear and relatively easy to fix mistakes.

I wholly agree with you. A little taller on the chassis, and a little taller on the top itself (or an opening) solves a world of issues with the case for many builders.
post #17600 of 17853
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciarlatano View Post

I can't really figure out what you two are arguing about, @doyll and @Mega Man.....but it seems to be a fan conversation rather than a Phanteks case conversation. And just my two cents....I tried the GTs, eLoops, Noctua iPPC (which really don't belong in this company with all of the low rpm noise they have) and a few others in my Primo, Luxe and Evolv ATX on the rads. I went back to the F120MP all three times - most pleasing sound profile to my ears, and no performance sacrifice at all.
Long story short, Mega Man posted in #17583 "T2 words for you : Gently Typhoon"
I replied that GTs were best until a few years ago, but now there are many equal to or better then GTs .. and posted test data of F120MP compared to Gentle Typhoon AP-13, 14 & 29 .. which he called 'box specs' .. doh.gif
Which they clearly are not,
So I tried posting P/Q graphs .. and he doesn't agree they are both P/Q graphs in ..

I came to the same conclusion you did .. the F120MP is better than GT of same speed range .. the speed range I normally want. wink.gif
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