Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter
2mm by itself isn't much, but the 10mm less of offset room your 140-series rad has definitely compounds your issues being able to reach things on top of the board like the 8-pin plug. It's a 3 dimensional issue, and whenever you bring it up you should point out you are dealing with a 140-series rad so no one is confused about what you are talking about and why the clearances are as tight as they are. If you can point out it's a 'UT-60', then you can mention it's a 420 UT-60. That's all I was saying.
No it's not a 3 dimensional issue. In this situation, we are talking about a case, MoBo and rad all of which are here in front of me. A UT60-480 still presents the same issues. Adding 10mm to a 1-2 mm dimension does not create access. Access to the 8 pin EPS plug is completely unaffected by the width of the rad....go back and look at the pic I posted... These are not spring loaded...ya don't push the latch and they pop out, they have to be forcefully wiggled free....to do that ya need a grip....to have a grip ya need opposable digits and to get them thru there ya need more than 11-12mm access..... ya also need a thumb whose joints bend backwards
To remove the plug from the connector I have to place my hands in a position to have "opposable digits" .... curling my fingers to use my "oppossable thumb my "man hand" is 11" in circumference touching my thumb and forefinger .... your asking me to squeeze that hand between two rigid tubes w/ press fit connections containing coolant and somehow get my fingers thru a 11 mm space, while making two 90 degree bends up and over teh HS to grip both sides of as connector with enough force to twist and extremely stiff sleeved bunch of wires it into a 180 degree bend and press it in place into a connector that I can not see, or press the release clip with enough force to get it in or out. It simply can not be done. My fingers alone are thicker than 11-12mm but if they could fit, how do I then use my thumb and finger opposite each other after squeezing both thru a 12mm space? It's the old "monkey with his hand caught in a jar" thing.... if the hand has a grip on something, it's not getting thru the neck of the jar....and here we have a have a jar with a 11-12 mm opening.
here's the pic I usually used previously when explaining problems with connector access.....doesn't get more obvious than that.
If you just pull the fan off of your rad (even a 60mm thick rad) you should have plenty of room to get to an 8-pin or that MPCIE thingie. No?
No. I am having an extremely hard time now with the 45mm rad ... getting it out isn't bad, getting it in is a bear as you have to twist a very bend resistant cable into a 180 and plug it into a connector that your visual access to is completely blocked by the rad above and your hand. I can't place my hand to the left as I normally would and get a view from the right as there's vertical acrylic tube in the way. Also the current fan wires are all laying and zip tied together along the floor / wall joint of the top chamber.....getting the screws out means the fan would still be hanging in the way as the wire zip ties would have to be cut and the top fans removed to get at the wires.
So you have the rigid tubes in the way coming down from the rad....and the 8 pin is blocked on 2 sides by the heat sink and on the top by the rad ... I have "man hands"....I think I might be able to get a finger in there to press the latch down but it would be hard to grip anything and pull it out with the tubing in the way. look at my pic .... Look at Jesse's pic where its way more problematic.
As for the 54mm it's not applicable in this situation as there are many things your drawing does not account for .... when I place a business card on the 35mm tall heat sink, it is just about touching the radiator back side.....the difference in rad width accounts for just half of that.......putting a 120mm fan there I have just enuff room to squeeze in a piece of rigid tube (12mm) tho it moves the fan a hair.....my fingers are thicker than rigid tubing and even if I had woman or child fingers ..... once thru, they are flattened .... no opposable thumb and no way to manipulate anything. Simply not physically possible.
I suspect I could plug and unplug the 8-pin on any motherboard with a 60mm thick 120-series rad installed in the top with the fan on it, and I'm all but certain I could with the fan removed. If not you must have some extremely fat fingers, but even then I still wouldn't think that draining a loop and removing a rad to be able to make some change in a rig is a big deal if it's not something I'd have to do very often. If that's what it takes to make something fit that I wanted in there, then it's nothing I would whine about.
Why would you want to make something fit and deal with draining a loop and removing a rad when the alternative offers you no advantage whatsoever ? What;s the "motivation" for wanting it in there ? Cost savings ? Performance Advantage ? is it a "Mine's Bigger" thing ? More on those later .
Let's get off the M6F for a sec and I suspect, you will change ya mind looking at Jesse's pic. That is a 120mm Alphacool XT45 in the above pic..... now looking at that....
1. Imagine there's 15mm of extra rad there....
2. There a vertical runs of press fit rigid tube filled with coolant coming down from that rad port
3. Now finally add a 25mm fan .... don't forget the 3mm gasket if fans don't have anti vibration / ant noise pads ..... you can't even see the socket you are trying to access
4. There is another horizontal run of press fit rigid tube filled with coolant coming running horizontally just below ya fans
How in the world can you possibly access that wire ? Jesse had a 60mm 420 in there and took it out because the cable issue. His access was worse than mine It wasn't acceptable to Jesse, it wouldn't be acceptable to me and I gotta imagine it wouldn't be acceptable to most because ya get nothing in return. There simply is no advantage to using a UT60-480 over a XT45-420
Hyperbolic much? With a 120-series rad's 54mm of offset the 15mm that a 25mm fan would overhang the board when mounted to a 120-series 60mm thick rad would not block you from looking up at it from below and still being able to see the top of the mobo, including your precious diagnostic panel. With that amount of offset, the 15mm of overhang only obscures the top of the board if you're staring at it from straight on. At a viewing distance of 3' (91.4 cm), for example, you'd only need to be looking up at the top of the motherboard from 10" (25.3 cm) below it (or only 5" below it from 18" out) to see the very top of the motherboard that's obscured 15mm by a fan on a 60mm rad w/ 54mm of offset. .
I see no reason for the belittling adjectives but if ya spent some time examining pics, I think you'd see the obvious..... the 54mm is a red herring.... If I am "supposed to have 54mm" ...how can a 35mm tall heat sink be almost vertically in line with the rad ? Allocate the extra 10mm for the thinner 120mm rad and ya have 46-47mm.... where'd the 7-8mm go that we'd need to get to 54 ? So lets look at the pics in my post and my sig
- This MoBo has a steel backplate .... does that account for the missing 7 mm ? .... not sure, but I ain't taking it apart to measure....It certainly makes the MoBo thicker, but wud not have guessed it would be that big.
- This MoBo has thermal armor covering 95% of its surface..... it's 15mm high off the MoBo
So 40% of the 54mm is simply "gone" ....
Now we have a LCD set back inside a frame formed by the thermal armor.
| Thermal Armor
<- Case Window
We started this conversation about not wanting block the view of a beautiful MoBo and your answer is that I can bend my body across my 42" deep desk and lay my head sideways on it so I can look up and try and read thru an opening between the fan and the lip of the thermal armor ? The LCD is set back, just like the EPS connector into the thermal armor
. Changes the range of view a bit. And I don't want to "hide it" no more than the other features of the board. I also don't want to become a contortionist to look at a display. I also don't want to "hide" the heat sink"....it's one of the most attractive features of the board.
Once all the factors that demonstrate the inapplicability of the 54mm that have been relied upon as the basis of the argument are taken into consideration it should be fairly obvious that this does in fact present several inconveniences. Look at Jesse's pic, and pictures of the MoBo in question and you should see immediately that these suggestions are impractical in these instances. Trying to convince me that what I consider important is not valid because it might be unimportant to you doesn't work when your viewpoint is based upon incorrect assumptions. The limitations imposed by the armor, backplate, positioning of key features present a different condition that what you are looking at. But more importantly, the question should not be how significant is each inconvenience....it should be .... is there any benefit that offsets the inconvenience..... I can't find any.
These "alternative solutions" don't get past the simple question of why should anyone put up with any inconvenience at all given the fact that you get nothing in exchange. What is the ROI (return on investment for time and effort) for "making it fit ? What is the ROI that one get in return for these inconveniences ? We apparently agree that we can "make it fit" if we are willing to suffer said inconveniences. We differ apparently only on the magnitude and significance of these inconveniences. So let's review the pluses and minuses. Let's leave out different surface are solutions as that introduces a whole other variable.
The XT45-420 gives me about 250 watts of cooling (302 in push pull) for $85 for the rad and $90 worth of $15 fans
The UT60-480 gives me about 251 watts of cooling (303 in push pull) for $125 for the rad and $120 worth of $15 fans
1. I can get an extra watt of cooling if I don't mind draining my loop to remove the obstructing tubes, removing at least a fan, maybe a rad and some rigid tubing to remove / replace the EPS cable ..... is it worth it ? ..... I don't see it being worth 1 watt.
2. I can get an extra watt of cooling if I don't mind laying across my desk and peering up between the tubing, thermal armor and fans to view the diagnostic panel that right now I can no see from my chair by "looking a little to the left" ..... is it worth it ? ..... I don't see it being worth 1 watt.
3. I can get an extra watt of cooling if I don't mind draining my loop, removing at least a fan and some tubing, maybe a rad and some to remove, replace or add a M.2 (NGFF) module to the MPCIE Combo II..... is it worth it ? ..... I don't see it being worth 1 watt.
4. I can get an extra watt of cooling if I don't mind draining my loop, removing at least a fan, maybe a rad and some rigid tubing to connect the thermal sensors and connector for rear case fan at the far upper left hand corner of the board ..... I don't see it being worth 1 watt......currently looking at sources of thermisters for this very purpose.
5. I can get an extra watt of cooling if I don't mind removing at least a fan to use the MemOK button to get past any memory errors ..... haven't needed to use it yet, but if I do.... it sure adds a lot of effort to the procedure. .... is it worth it ? ..... I don't see it being worth 1 watt.
6. I can get an extra watt of cooling if I don't mind draining my loop, removing couple of fans, maybe the rad and some rigid tubing to use ProbeIt voltage terminals for diagnostic purposes..... is it worth it ? ..... I don't see it being worth 1 watt.
7. I can get an extra watt of cooling if I am willing to drop my goal of having the opportunity to view the "work of engineering art" Asus called the M6F .... one of the reasons I invested in this MoBo is it was beautiful to look at . I bought a case, and configured my tubing, eschewing bridges and anything else for an open layout so as not to hamper that view as much as possible ..... again resulting in additional expense. That's like spending extra for a building lot with a great view facing the ocean and then sticking up a basketball court with the backboard right in front of ya picture window..... is it worth it ? .... I don't see it being worth 1 watt.
8. I could get an extra watt of cooling if I give up a my top 5.25 drive bay which right now fits my Reeven Six Eyes in the top slot..... is it worth it ? ..... I don't see it being worth 1 watt.
9. I could get an extra watt of cooling for $70 .... so $0.58 a watt for the 1st 302 watts and then 121 times that for one extra watt ? No logic there. For an extra $70, I want another 121 watts !
So what we are left with is ..... a choice between a a 45mm rad with no inconveniences or spending an extra $70 for a 60mm rad that will give us 1 watt more cooling but "has issues"..... Some of them I'd consider significant to a substantial portion of users, some might be important only to myself..... But the question is why bother if there was only one even if it's a little one ?
If you get transferred to a satellite location temporarily and a coworker there responds to ya question about best routes..... if one route is trouble free, no stop and go , has no tolls, rarely has accidents, has lotta cops watching speed, few potholes and that once every 15 trips you going to have problem .... what's the point of arguing that you usually don't mind traffic, the tolls are small, you rarely drive over the speed limit, etc. ? Why put up with any of those minor annoyances for the sake of just "wanting to fit it in" ? You have no upside, several potential downsides even if they don't happen and the other route has has none.
Remember when we had a bunch of us wondering if a 780 would fit with the res bracket and res in place and bunch of us took measurements (I made my cardboard 780s rubber banded to an old mini-card) and cautiously indicated that it should fit .... but no one was willing to say for sure till based upon the mockup I went out and bought a 780, stripped the air cooler and took pics of it fitting.
When it comes to this question, similar to the above, I usually say "may have issues" with access but in this case I left out the "may" because I can speak from actual experience....I also only include issues that I thought would affect the majority of folksies. In my case, I had the whole thing built before i got to the point in the manual where it said "time to install the MPCIE thingie" and it took 2 people to get it in.....so that one sticks particularly "up front" in my mind
The exact same case, rad and MoBo that was asked about are sitting right here in front of me. Before I filled the loop or even finished the plumbing I put a fan on the bottom ...... I made a 42mm thick mockup and taped it up to the rad .... I tried to access the cable .... I didn't get it out but when trying I did pop off the tube from the rad to the CPU Water Block.Edited by JackNaylorPE - 1/8/14 at 9:33pm