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[Official] Case PHANTEKS Case Club for lovers & owners - Page 244

post #2431 of 18690
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Here's video of real Enthoo Luxe.. and quick view of Enthoo Pro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rV0xwNkoGA

Is that a 200mm fan in front? Wonder if Phanteks makes a 200mm fan now that's worth a hoot... Would make a rad up there not a bad option if it's a decent fan....
post #2432 of 18690
Quote:
Originally Posted by owcraftsman View Post

Maybe I said that wrong let me be less clear and more to the point lol
I have my doubts about any 45 mm rad being only 1 watt behind any 60 mm rad when you compare apples to apples that is to say 120 vs 120 140 vs 140  360 vs 360 or 420 vs 420. The physics make no sense.
I have a UT60 420 in the top had no problems installing, I have 10mm clearance to HS on mobo, 20mm to memory clearance no problems removing a fan for greater access to mobo screws, I placed the 420 as far forward as possible and it's not in the way of the 8pin eps at all and I'd venture to say the same is true with most mobo that don't have the EPS in the middle top of the board (poor choice by Asus), and I'll take UT60 420 over a XT45 420 any day of the week.
There may be little difference between a 480 and 420 according to the calculator you are using but the XT45-420 has approx 810,000 less sq mm of mass than a UT60-480
480*120*60=3456000 sq mm
420*140*45=2646000 sq mm
I know that's overly simplistic and actual surface area may vary a bit due to FPI etc but still hard to think it only a little bigger.
It's not hard to figure out if utilized properly (right fans) which one would perform better and me still thinks the difference is more than 1 watt. 
Of course all this assumes both configs are in push/pull and both are using the highest quality fans at medium to low speed putting both configs on an even playing field.
If you use previous gen 140mm fans the 420 would be at a disadvantage similarly most assume a trade off when using a 60mm vs 45mm radiator. The 60 can only use push or pull and the 45 can be configured using push/pull in other cases where folks have measured the difference. If that is assumed and used for the calculation the 420 again would be at a disadvantage. Furthermore most evaluations I've seen for comparison to 120 rads use 1st generation high restriction 420 rads like the swiftech. Such is not the case with the Enthoo Primo Case, the Phanteks PH-140SP fans and the Alphacool UT60 420 rad there is no such limitation.
Bottom line when you couple three factors
1) the enthoo primo case ability to accommodate 140mm rads
2) the latest gen 140mm fans with static pressure equaling that of high pressure 120mm fans
3) latest gen 420 rads with flow rates equaling that of there 120 rad counterparts
The game has been changed in favor of the 140mm rads and all that you read contrary to this maybe wrong IMHO

I'm only chiming in here to say I really like the phanteks fans. Their 140's, the included fans, are fantastic. Some over in the air cooling forums really love them too. With that said, I have 6 of them in push pull on my phoyba rad, don't have a single size issue at all. With my motherboard (Gigabyte z87OC), I even have full access to the 8 pin connectors and can remove the ram easily if needed. The only single issue I had was getting the darn thing in the case - practically had to disassemble the entire thing. Sucks too because now I wish and am considering flipping it as currently the fittings are on the backside where I may flip it and put them on the front.
post #2433 of 18690
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteReplay View Post

sorry is this has been asked before but im not on track always so apologies

how much heat or watts will this one be able to handle

Alphacool NexXxoS XT45 Full Copper 360mm Radiator (For 3 x 120mm Fans) ???

Here ya go

http://www.overclock.net/t/1457426/radiator-size-estimator
911 Carrera
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911 Carrera
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post #2434 of 18690
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bond32 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Here's video of real Enthoo Luxe.. and quick view of Enthoo Pro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rV0xwNkoGA

Is that a 200mm fan in front? Wonder if Phanteks makes a 200mm fan now that's worth a hoot... Would make a rad up there not a bad option if it's a decent fan....
Good eyes!
I think it is. Here's another video showing it better.
https://www.phanteks.com/#&panel1-1&panel2-1
Edited by doyll - 1/9/14 at 1:20pm
post #2435 of 18690
Quote:
Originally Posted by owcraftsman View Post

Maybe I said that wrong let me be less clear and more to the point lol
I have my doubts about any 45 mm rad being only 1 watt behind any 60 mm rad when you compare apples to apples that is to say 120 vs 120 140 vs 140  360 vs 360 or 420 vs 420. The physics make no sense.

First we need to recognize that we were not comparing apples to apples..... we were comparing a 45mm 420 (58,800 sq mm) with a 60mm 480 (57,600 sq mm) so the shorter depth rad has a slight surface area advantage..... it also has a smaller % of dead area behind the fan motor but that advantage is not accounted for.

And the thermodynamic .... we can talk about physics when fan turbulence comes up smile.gif ..... the analysis is sound . And actually it does make sense when you take all factors into account and look at what is happening ..... You assumption would be valid is the air temperature was constant from top to bottom and the air flow was constant in both instances. WE don't have those two conditions and that's where the static model falls apart. We don't have a 'static" situation and and the fact that there is a temp gradient thru the rad must be recognized. If we can agree that the air coming out of a rad is hotter than the air going in, it is easy to see that the transfer of heat at the top is going to be greater than at the bottom....with ambient temps at ambient 24, here's a sample temperature gradient where the air is being heated as it goes thru the rad

_________________________________________
24C
26
28
30
32
__________________________________________

So where will the greatest heat exchange take place ?....from the 35C water to the 24C air at the top or the 35C water to the 32C air at the bottom ? In addition, when ya have more depth, ya have more resistance and when ya have more resistance you have less air flow.....when ya have less air flow, ya have less heat exchange taking place.
Quote:
I have a UT60 420 in the top had no problems installing, I have 10mm clearance to HS on mobo, 20mm to memory clearance no problems removing a fan for greater access to mobo screws, I placed the 420 as far forward as possible and it's not in the way of the 8pin eps at all and I'd venture to say the same is true with most mobo that don't have the EPS in the middle top of the board (poor choice by Asus), and I'll take UT60 420 over a XT45 420 any day of the week.

You should share your installation method as several peeps here had to disassemble half the case even to get even an XT45-420 in .... I stumbled upon a way to tilt and twist it in but my method wouldn't work on a 60mm. I don't have it as forward as possible as it woulda ruined the lineup of the rigid tubing and taken away my top drive bay. As it is now, I can still fit a Reeven Six Eyes in there. As for the EPS, we were talking specifically about the M6F which doesn't have it in the middle of the board. Jesse's build over at modzoo had it in the middle tho and he took out the UT60 because of cable concerns. If a UT60 is what ya want for aesthetics or other reasons, I have no issue with that..... but that won't change the thermodynamics, nor Martins / anyone else's test results
Quote:
There may be little difference between a 480 and 420 according to the calculator you are using but the XT45-420 has approx 810,000 less sq mm of mass than a UT60-480
480*120*60=3456000 sq mm
420*140*45=2646000 sq mm

Mass would be cu.mm...... and extra mass is irrelevant when you no longer have an adequate temperature differential. The surface area argument is very valid but you have to account for the temperature gradient. Maybe it will be easier to understand this way.....

Stack two ST30's ..... with air being pulled in from the top of the case down thru the top rad, into the bot rad and out into the case .... Would you accept that the bottom rad's performance is hampered by the fact that its intake air is pre-heated by the top rad ..... same thing with thickness.

Quote:
I know that's overly simplistic and actual surface area may vary a bit due to FPI etc but still hard to think it only a little bigger.
It's not hard to figure out if utilized properly (right fans) which one would perform better and me still thinks the difference is more than 1 watt. 

The test are the tests .... they are not subject to interpretation, they are actual measured results.

This are the test results at 1000 rpm which is the typical range of flow in the Enthoo.....mine run about 44 in idle and 862 while gaming .... the results are so close, any variances are smaller than the margin or error :

ST30-360 = 150
XT45-360 = 149
UT60-360 = 151
Monsta-360 = 154

Now again, we are talking about low noise installations in the Enthoo using the Phanteks fans. If we were to refocus the discussion to higher density rads and higher speed fans, the discussion will change. The temperature gradient will shrink because the air is moving thru faster. At low speeds, the air has absorbed just about all it can by the time it reaches the other side of the rad .....the analogy "you already have ya 5 pounds of crap in the 5 pound bag" comes to mind ..... but push the air thru faster and your hypothesis comes into play..... now the extra depth will matter because by the time the air exits the tin rads under hi speed, the "bag" isn't already full.

At 1250 rpm, we start to see a spread tho 5 watts is not anything to get excited about

ST30-360 = 181
XT45-360 = 183
UT60-360 = 188
Monsta-360 = 197

At 1800 rpm now, we start to see what you are expecting start to happen.

ST30-360 = 242
XT45-360 = 257
UT60-360 = 269
Monsta-360 = 281

Now the UT60 will provide 4.5% more cooling with the same surface / fan area.

At 2200 rpm.....we jump to 6%

ST30-360 = 281
XT45-360 = 307
UT60-360 = 326
Monsta-360 = 365

What you are expecting was very much applicable in the days of 30fpi rads and hi speed fans where hi speed was needed to provide enuff SP to get the air thru. But at low speeds, extra thickness does not really help.... The WC industry has followed the auto industry in this respect .... I remember changing the rad in my 1965 Pontiac Tempest ....was about 24" square and had a thickness of 2.5" .... rehabbed my sons Xterra rad and changed the one in his jeep and they were very thin, wide and tall.

If ya want the absolute best temps, I'd lean towards high fpi, thick rads with 3,000 rpm fans. If noise is concern, then lower speed fans are required and with that, thinner rads will be much more efficient.
911 Carrera
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CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
1 x Swiftech 35x2 w/ Heatsink and NB Fan EK -MultiOption RES X3 250 White Acetal Reservoir 5 x PH-F140SP_BK_BLED + 5 x PH-F140SP_BK E22 Rigid 10/12 Acrylic Tubing and Bitspower Ma... 
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2 x Reeven Six Eyes Fan Controller Windows 7 64 Bit Professional OEM ASUS VG248QE Black 23" 144 Hz Monitor Logitech G19s 920-004985 
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911 Carrera
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2 x Reeven Six Eyes Fan Controller Windows 7 64 Bit Professional OEM ASUS VG248QE Black 23" 144 Hz Monitor Logitech G19s 920-004985 
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post #2436 of 18690
+rep, You can always trust Jack to give you the hard numbers!
post #2437 of 18690
Thread Starter 
Phanteks hasn't got me the PWM hub specs yet but said he has "been told that the PWM can only hold 30W max." That would be approx 2.7 on control header and 5.4w on the other 5 headers... or 3x 1.8w PH-F140SP on each of the 5 headers. As to how close 30w is to letting the smoke out of the wires... well. rolleyes.gif

Looks Phanteks has lots on it's plate at the moment.. Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, White Enthoo Primo, new Enthoo Luxe and Enthoo Pro (hopefully in March), new PH-F200SP (also March), PWM hub (should be soon)...
post #2438 of 18690
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
First we need to recognize that we were not comparing apples to apples..... we were comparing a 45mm 420 (58,800 sq mm) with a 60mm 480 (57,600 sq mm) so the shorter depth rad has a slight surface area advantage..... it also has a smaller % of dead area behind the fan motor but that advantage is not accounted for.

And the thermodynamic .... we can talk about physics when fan turbulence comes up smile.gif ..... the analysis is sound . And actually it does make sense when you take all factors into account and look at what is happening ..... You assumption would be valid is the air temperature was constant from top to bottom and the air flow was constant in both instances. WE don't have those two conditions and that's where the static model falls apart. We don't have a 'static" situation and and the fact that there is a temp gradient thru the rad must be recognized. If we can agree that the air coming out of a rad is hotter than the air going in, it is easy to see that the transfer of heat at the top is going to be greater than at the bottom....with ambient temps at ambient 24, here's a sample temperature gradient where the air is being heated as it goes thru the rad

_________________________________________
24C
26
28
30
32
__________________________________________

So where will the greatest heat exchange take place ?....from the 35C water to the 24C air at the top or the 35C water to the 32C air at the bottom ? In addition, when ya have more depth, ya have more resistance and when ya have more resistance you have less air flow.....when ya have less air flow, ya have less heat exchange taking place.
You should share your installation method as several peeps here had to disassemble half the case even to get even an XT45-420 in .... I stumbled upon a way to tilt and twist it in but my method wouldn't work on a 60mm. I don't have it as forward as possible as it woulda ruined the lineup of the rigid tubing and taken away my top drive bay. As it is now, I can still fit a Reeven Six Eyes in there. As for the EPS, we were talking specifically about the M6F which doesn't have it in the middle of the board. Jesse's build over at modzoo had it in the middle tho and he took out the UT60 because of cable concerns. If a UT60 is what ya want for aesthetics or other reasons, I have no issue with that..... but that won't change the thermodynamics, nor Martins / anyone else's test results
Mass would be cu.mm...... and extra mass is irrelevant when you no longer have an adequate temperature differential. The surface area argument is very valid but you have to account for the temperature gradient. Maybe it will be easier to understand this way.....

Stack two ST30's ..... with air being pulled in from the top of the case down thru the top rad, into the bot rad and out into the case .... Would you accept that the bottom rad's performance is hampered by the fact that its intake air is pre-heated by the top rad ..... same thing with thickness.
The test are the tests .... they are not subject to interpretation, they are actual measured results.

This are the test results at 1000 rpm which is the typical range of flow in the Enthoo.....mine run about 44 in idle and 862 while gaming .... the results are so close, any variances are smaller than the margin or error :

ST30-360 = 150
XT45-360 = 149
UT60-360 = 151
Monsta-360 = 154

Now again, we are talking about low noise installations in the Enthoo using the Phanteks fans. If we were to refocus the discussion to higher density rads and higher speed fans, the discussion will change. The temperature gradient will shrink because the air is moving thru faster. At low speeds, the air has absorbed just about all it can by the time it reaches the other side of the rad .....the analogy "you already have ya 5 pounds of crap in the 5 pound bag" comes to mind ..... but push the air thru faster and your hypothesis comes into play..... now the extra depth will matter because by the time the air exits the tin rads under hi speed, the "bag" isn't already full.

At 1250 rpm, we start to see a spread tho 5 watts is not anything to get excited about

ST30-360 = 181
XT45-360 = 183
UT60-360 = 188
Monsta-360 = 197

At 1800 rpm now, we start to see what you are expecting start to happen.

ST30-360 = 242
XT45-360 = 257
UT60-360 = 269
Monsta-360 = 281

Now the UT60 will provide 4.5% more cooling with the same surface / fan area.

At 2200 rpm.....we jump to 6%

ST30-360 = 281
XT45-360 = 307
UT60-360 = 326
Monsta-360 = 365

What you are expecting was very much applicable in the days of 30fpi rads and hi speed fans where hi speed was needed to provide enuff SP to get the air thru. But at low speeds, extra thickness does not really help.... The WC industry has followed the auto industry in this respect .... I remember changing the rad in my 1965 Pontiac Tempest ....was about 24" square and had a thickness of 2.5" .... rehabbed my sons Xterra rad and changed the one in his jeep and they were very thin, wide and tall.

If ya want the absolute best temps, I'd lean towards high fpi, thick rads with 3,000 rpm fans. If noise is concern, then lower speed fans are required and with that, thinner rads will be much more efficient.

Yup, this is EXACTLY what I found from personal experience, thicker radiators like the Monsta really benefit from higher speed fans, more so than the lower speed ones, even in push/pull configurations. At low speeds, say between 800 and 1000 RPM (ie if you are trying to be quiet), a thick radiator doesn't really buy you all that much as far as dumping heat goes. A thinner radiator that has more surface area (length and width wise ... not counting thickness) will get you better results than a thicker radiator that has less length and width.

That is why for my new build, I pretty much dumped my Monsta 360 and went with a more "sane" RX360 (mainly because I already had one laying around). Even going with a thinner 30mm radiator up top (EX480) will get me much more cooling capacity than the 60mm RX360 down below (291 watts on the 30mm 480 vs 219 watts on the 60mm 360).

Bottom line, for lower speed fans, generally having a 60mm or 80mm thick radiator won't really net you a huge gain in cooling capacity as going with more surface area (ie length and width).
post #2439 of 18690
Is it just me or do Alphacool prove 12 long screws, that are too long? I have to use 4 spacers before they could fit, and now the top wont sit correctly, not that it cant be fixed, but seems a shame.
post #2440 of 18690
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Yup, this is EXACTLY what I found from personal experience, thicker radiators like the Monsta really benefit from higher speed fans, more so than the lower speed ones, even in push/pull configurations. At low speeds, say between 800 and 1000 RPM (ie if you are trying to be quiet), a thick radiator doesn't really buy you all that much as far as dumping heat goes. A thinner radiator that has more surface area (length and width wise ... not counting thickness) will get you better results than a thicker radiator that has less length and width.

That is why for my new build, I pretty much dumped my Monsta 360 and went with a more "sane" RX360 (mainly because I already had one laying around). Even going with a thinner 30mm radiator up top (EX480) will get me much more cooling capacity than the 60mm RX360 down below (291 watts on the 30mm 480 vs 219 watts on the 60mm 360).

Bottom line, for lower speed fans, generally having a 60mm or 80mm thick radiator won't really net you a huge gain in cooling capacity as going with more surface area (ie length and width).

I have a 60mm thick rads with fans running at 450rpm which has no noise,

Idle temps of GPU's and @ 100% they go to 33oC you cant really get any better can you?
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Red Dwarf
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