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[Official] Case PHANTEKS Case Club for lovers & owners - Page 332

post #3311 of 18657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoore View Post

Hi guys,
enthoo primo's manual talks about a limit of 70mm thickness max for 480 top radiator.

Can i install a 80mm radiator if i don't plan to use first 5.25 bay? Or there's another physical limit?

Like mentioned it depends on your mortherboards heatsinks, and your ram. I use an MSI Z87 MPower, and Avexir core ram and with my 420 Monsta I've got about 1.5mm clearence. But don't be fooled the Monsta rads are 86 thick and not 80.
post #3312 of 18657
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulyoung View Post

Exactly my conclusion mate, this is the only forum where people have got the same way of thinking with the EP, they always just say heat rises so have the bottom as intake and roof as exhaust. I was getting loads of negative feedback from the other forum, up until I showed them that by doing it my / your way I actually dropped the temps by about 4 degrees. As as soon as I posted proof the thread died. All the haters asking for proof, got what they wanted, and didn't reply.


If you drop Phanteks an email they will send you some new clips for the front panel. I'm on my 2nd set now, well 3rd I'm waiting for the rev 2 clips now, there customer service is great drop the a message you'll get a reply the next, if not the same day. I've also had the fan hub, and front led strip fail, and they are also sending them on to me too.

That makes a lot of sense so I think I'll try it. I'm using air for CPU cooling, so the benchmarks will be interesting.
post #3313 of 18657
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoore View Post

Hi guys,
enthoo primo's manual talks about a limit of 70mm thickness max for 480 top radiator.

Can i install a 80mm radiator if i don't plan to use first 5.25 bay? Or there's another physical limit?

There is 70mm from the top of the mobo to the top of the case, but there is also 54mm of offset for a 120mm-series rad (240, 360, 480) or 44mm of offset for a 140mm-series rad (280, 420) where the mobo sits that much farther back from the rad, so as long as you don't have anything (ram, heatsinks, etc) taller than the offset at the top of the mobo and you don't mind the extra trouble of installing the mobo and ram, and CPU power cable(s), etc before installing the rad, and possibly having to remove the rad first to get to those things if need be, then it is definitely possible that a radiator thicker than 70mm can fit up top, with push-pull fans on it even, as it will just overhang the top of the mobo.

Just look at Paul Young's build. He was able to fit a 420 Monsta rad up top in the case.

Here's a diagram illustrating the clearance for a 120mm-series (240, 360, 480) radiator in the top of the Enthoo Primo

Enthoo Primo top rad clearance
Edited by Unicr0nhunter - 3/14/14 at 1:14pm
post #3314 of 18657
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

I think "wisdom" has little if anything to do with it. It has more to do with conventional design, optical bay placement, conventional motherboard design with CPU near top, old low power demand GPUs, PSU being mounted in back top pulling air from inside, etc. It's what customer was buying and case builders have no desire to rock the boat too much.. until recently. Oh sure, they "designed" fancy gamer cases but that's more about the look that sells it than performance.

Now we have GPUs making 2 to 3 times as much heat as CPU, often 2 or 3 in a take making 6 to 9 times the heat CPU does. we don't what that heat going into CPU cooler.. at least I don't. tongue.gif Obviously an intake in the fornt of case feeding air directly to CPU cooler would be ideal, but that isn't practical without modifications.
My suggestions above were for air cooled use, not H2O. For H20 maybe top and bottom in with front and back out might be best. )

I agreed the first time that all are valid points but again, there are competing factors..... which set of factors wins will depend on case specifics..... my thinking is however, if your postulation were an absolute given, that at least one case manufacturer would have tried to distinguish itself with such a design by now. Look at all the independent thought that Phanteks put into this design, seems to me this thought would have occurred to them, and if borne out, would have been another way to distinguish themselves.
Quote:
I was not suggesting all of top, side, front and bottom be filled with intake fans.

I missing something .... the list says:

1 or 2 top intakes
2 front intakes
1 or 2 bottom intakes.

Ok so there's intakes in the top, front and bottom..... if ya not gonna short circuit, what's left ? The side panel bottom is not going to be very effective for exhausting hot air .... it's presence even possibly detracts from case cooling as with6 fans blowing in, the path of least resistance is fresh air from the front intakes going right out 3" away.
Quote:
The combination of 5.25 bay in top and front fans tends to turn the airflow toward the back. Only area of possible "dead zone" is at middle of case / front of motherboard above GPU.. which should not be a problem.

That's where I think Phantek's missed one..... at least as per the Silverstone article.... the front 5.25 area provides a nice location for an exhaust fan tho, many people won't want the sound an heat being exhausted in their faces. A grille in that front door still wuda been welcome. But again, mush shorter path from front to side panel, especially with those HD bays in there deflecting air to the sides.

Again, all your points are valid points ..... but there's valid points in both directions and only detailed testing will show definitively which set "wins" in the end and even that will be case, configuration and installation specific. A floor installation under a desk has different restraints than a desk cubby which is in turn different from an open desktop....what works well in one might not carry over to the others.

But all in all, being geeks, I feel we give a lot more credence to these various mantras we go buy then we if called upon we can adequately justify....

-$2300 in Water Cooling parts netted me 0.1 GHz on my CPU, .... not exactly a winner in the ROI department
-I have extremely low GPU temps but get the same "stable" OCs as under air
-I have spent hours on tweaking fan curves for no real observable gain......fans are inaudible at 850 rpm so why bother turning them down ?

But I had loads of fun and personal satisfaction doing it so was the expense worth it, hell yeah ..... A 0.1 second difference in a race means thousands of dollars in winnings and endorsements to a competitive race driver.....but to do car enthusiasts benefit in any way from tweaking their cars ? No, not at all, .... no one gets a bonus for getting to work 4 seconds earlier. ..... but like them I did get a lot of pleasure and personal satisfaction of figuring things out.

..... and we also tend to long hold onto "wisdom" from past years and hold it as gospel long after the data behind it is relevant.

-Temps won't vary more than 0.5C in a loop....they do, I have managed 3+C
-SP is extremely important on rads .... can be, but not with 9-12 fpi and low rpm fans
-Positive pressure is essential to keep dust out, it's very helpful but having bust positive pressure without inlet fan filters is meaningless.
-The presence of aluminum in a loop will corrode copper.... scientifically impossible.

So like you said, long held "wisdom" should always be questioned and revisited over time.....At this point, from a theoretical standpoint, I'd say it's hardly a difference between back versus back + top in air cooling on large cases like the Enthoo..... On small cases I gotta go with back and top, on large cases, I'm not so sure but I'm still leaning towards back and top but if I'm right or wrong, I doubt it's by any margin of significance . I base my a lot of my thought process on building and confined space ventilation studies and practices where ya can get in and conduct detailed measurements .... bit harder to do when the confined space is 1/20th the size but the theory should hold.

And the result can easily flip flop via influences we don't immediately recognize. Your air restriction at the case bottom is a perfect example, it greatly affected your 480 installation whereas in my build it had little effect. While we were both similarly affected by the small inlet area, my inflow was augmented by having air intake thru the case floor thru the large open vents between the 280 and the front fans. The disadvantage was offset and rendered to a "no impact" because conditions changed.

If someone looked at my test and said .... the impact of the reduced inlet area is negligible at worse, they'd be correct.
If someone looked at your test and said .... the impact of the reduced inlet area is huge and the only remedy is ..... , they'd be correct.

The problem only arises when the reader looks at the conclusion and tries to apply the conclusion across the board, without recognizing the conditions that you are bound to run into some surprises. A perfect example of why there are no absolutes and why we have to look at the reasoning behind the mantra, not take it as gospel and make sure that it is relevant to all situations we apply it to.
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911 Carrera
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2 x SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256BW 2.5" 256GB (2 x Seagate ST2000DX001 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cach... Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blue Ray Writer 1 x Alphacool NexXxoS XT45-420 + 1 x Alphacool ... 
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post #3315 of 18657
Quote:
Originally Posted by skywalker311 View Post

Hey guys, I need a little help. I need to make a fill port on my case. I have a EK 420 coolstream rad.This rad has two top ports and two bottom. I'm using the top ports for my temperature plug and the other
for the fill port. So what I wanted to know is where a good place to put the fill port. I've got a few ideas but I would like to hear from you guys and see that you done for a fill port.
I've got a quick disconnect for the bottom. So I'm good on that one. What I thought I might do was make a bracket and put it in the back side of the case. Let me know what you think.

The Alphacool's have 7 ports .... 2 top / 2 side 2 bottom and 1 opposite side. I have the 2 bottoms with the in and out tubes, two sides with temp sensors and 2 tops as fill and bleed ports. I don't quite get ya statement

"I'm using the top ports for my temperature plug and the other for the fill port. So what I wanted to know is where a good place to put the fill port."

Did you perhaps mean one of them was a "bleed port" ?

If ya Rad has the opposite side port, as in the Alpha's 7th port, that can serve as a fill port.... I designed a bracket as a backup to the original plan and can send ya the CAD files if that's ya plan.

But if not, how about a Tee on the bottom port9s) and put the temp sensor on the branch of the Tee ? That would free up the other port.
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911 Carrera
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Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
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post #3316 of 18657
Ya know Jack.... I do love your insight .... I did, however, find the need move the dictionary closer to my desk as I am tired of getting up to check new words. LOL

Pos-tu-late

verb (used with object), pos·tu·lat·ed, pos·tu·lat·ing.
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post #3317 of 18657
I have a EK 420 rad and a XSPC 240 rad and not a alphacool rad and I'm making a fill port for my loop.
post #3318 of 18657
This wait for pre-orders on the white Primo is killing me. Between new PSU's being released, SSD's going on sale, and watercooling parts it's getting super difficult to hold out for it.
post #3319 of 18657
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
my thinking is however, if your postulation were an absolute given, that at least one case manufacturer would have tried to distinguish itself with such a design by now.
We are not speaking in absolutes. We are speaking in generalities. [/quote]

Several cases have done different airflow patterns.
Lian Li PC-A05, PC-A05N, PC-05FN (balck to front)
Silverstone RV01, RV02-E, RV03, TJ11FT02 (bottom to top) Think they own the patent on 90 degree.
Silverstone RV04 (front to back)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
I missing something .... the list says:

1 or 2 top intakes
2 front intakes
1 or 2 bottom intakes.

Ok so there's intakes in the top, front and bottom..... if ya not gonna short circuit, what's left ? The side panel bottom is not going to be very effective for exhausting hot air .... it's presence even possibly detracts from case cooling as with6 fans blowing in, the path of least resistance is fresh air from the front intakes going right out 3" away.
Well now you've lost me. PWM hub will handle up to 11 fans and we are only taking 5. ??
Sidee vent is there regardless.. and only vents from one side of intake fans...or block it off... yet front intakes seem to work with stock setup... and I'm only suggesting moving 2 fans from exhaust to intake. Back is full of holes. tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE
The problem only arises when the reader looks at the conclusion and tries to apply the conclusion across the board, without recognizing the conditions that you are bound to run into some surprises. A perfect example of why there are no absolutes and why we have to look at the reasoning behind the mantra, not take it as gospel and make sure that it is relevant to all situations we apply it to.
Indeed.
Every system is different, and airflow can be effected by very little change. A single cable or HDD configuration can cause air to flow differently.

Setting up efficient case airflow is probably the hardest part of a build.. and the most neglected in many cases.. too may cases.

Although I am seeing more and more builders asking questions and improving their airflow.thumb.gif
post #3320 of 18657
Quote:
Originally Posted by simsim44 View Post

Ya know Jack.... I do love your insight .... I did, however, find the need move the dictionary closer to my desk as I am tired of getting up to check new words. LOL

Pos-tu-late

verb (used with object), pos·tu·lat·ed, pos·tu·lat·ing.

I drive all sides crazy when Y say "Well if ya postulate" .... grammar nazi's (and before anyone gets offended, used here as analogy to soup nazi as opposed to the Charlie Chaplin looking guy) hate the "ya" .... other say "why didn't ya just say assume ? smile.gif I do love the back and forth with doyll tho.....he always makes me think about things from all sides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

We are not speaking in absolutes. We are speaking in generalities.

Understood.... what I am saying is ..... in general, I don't see any case manufacturers going against convection in air cooled designs.

Quote:
Well now you've lost me. PWM hub will handle up to 11 fans and we are only taking 5. ??

I'm not sure how the PWM hub entered into the equation. Can have 5 fans or 11 fans and not use the hub...... CPU 1 and 2, OPT 1 thru 3, CHA 1 thru 3 is 8 channels, each of which can handle multiple fans....I thot we had 8 ..... 2 fronts, 3 bottom and 3 top when we started.

Quote:
Side vent is there regardless.. and only vents from one side of intake fans...or block it off... yet front intakes seem to work with stock setup... and I'm only suggesting moving 2 fans from exhaust to intake.

But dont ya think if left as is, air will short circuit from front with air 8 fans blowing in ? Yes, an astute veteran case geek would think ti gasket the PSU intake and block the side vent but to most that would be an .... (here's one for simsim) .....ANATHEMA .... and yes, I hadda look up the correct spelling smile.gif
Quote:
Setting up efficient case airflow is probably the hardest part of a build.. and the most neglected in many cases.. too may cases.... Although I am seeing more and more builders asking questions and improving their airflow.

What surprises me is that after all the back and forth as we obsess about these things, few ever actually test their conclusions against the finished product. How often have ya seen "loop temps" don't vary by more than 0.5C " ? How many have repeated this without ever testing it ? I

Here we are talking about dust and I haven't bothered to put my side panels on and case filters back since we both did that filter restriction testing (no dust accumulation if ya wondering).

Here I spent dozens of hours tweaking fan curves and trying to decide best way to control rad fans (water tempos, GPU temps, CPU temps, combination thereof..... and the reality is from a geek perspective i did find some real "interesting data" but from a user experience perspective, there's no impact at all from running at 850 rpm..... handles all temps thrown at it, and make no noise. So it coukld be argued "what's the point"..... to me, I had fun is the only relevant answer.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/14/14 at 9:15pm
911 Carrera
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel w/ EK Supremacy Cooling Block - Clean P... Asus Maximus VI Formula 2 x Asus GTX 780 DCII w/ EK Full Cover Blocks a... Mushkin Red Line Ridgeback 2 x 8GB DDR302400 10... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
2 x SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256BW 2.5" 256GB (2 x Seagate ST2000DX001 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cach... Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blue Ray Writer 1 x Alphacool NexXxoS XT45-420 + 1 x Alphacool ... 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
1 x Swiftech 35x2 w/ Heatsink and NB Fan EK -MultiOption RES X3 250 White Acetal Reservoir 5 x PH-F140SP_BK_BLED + 5 x PH-F140SP_BK E22 Rigid 10/12 Acrylic Tubing and Bitspower Ma... 
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2 x Reeven Six Eyes Fan Controller Windows 7 64 Bit Professional OEM ASUS VG248QE Black 23" 144 Hz Monitor Logitech G19s 920-004985 
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Seasonic X-1250 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Ultimate Chassis Asus RoG GX950 Laser Mouse  Logitech Z5500 
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911 Carrera
(20 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel w/ EK Supremacy Cooling Block - Clean P... Asus Maximus VI Formula 2 x Asus GTX 780 DCII w/ EK Full Cover Blocks a... Mushkin Red Line Ridgeback 2 x 8GB DDR302400 10... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
2 x SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256BW 2.5" 256GB (2 x Seagate ST2000DX001 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cach... Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blue Ray Writer 1 x Alphacool NexXxoS XT45-420 + 1 x Alphacool ... 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
1 x Swiftech 35x2 w/ Heatsink and NB Fan EK -MultiOption RES X3 250 White Acetal Reservoir 5 x PH-F140SP_BK_BLED + 5 x PH-F140SP_BK E22 Rigid 10/12 Acrylic Tubing and Bitspower Ma... 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
2 x Reeven Six Eyes Fan Controller Windows 7 64 Bit Professional OEM ASUS VG248QE Black 23" 144 Hz Monitor Logitech G19s 920-004985 
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Seasonic X-1250 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Ultimate Chassis Asus RoG GX950 Laser Mouse  Logitech Z5500 
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