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[Official] Case PHANTEKS Case Club for lovers & owners - Page 345

post #3441 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1rad3 View Post

Hi, I'm considering the case for a new build, the radiator support is amazing. Two questions though:
1. could a 480 rad be fitted in the bottom with the fittings on the front (case)fan side?
and
2. can 2 D5s with the ek dual top fit on the pump mounting bracket in the psu compartment? Or using 2 pumps means having to go with a bayres?
Thanks!

An Alphacool 480 Monsta is a common selection for the bottom ....and one worth considering if you have 3 or 4 GFX cards. Systems are generally categorized as follows:

Extreme < 10C
High End 10C
Mid-range 20C
Entry level 30C

For Haswell builds (OC'd to say 4.6) and w/ twin 780 Tis (+25% OC), a 45mm 420 on top and 60mm 280 on bottom is capable of providing the Delta T of 10C typically sought after with even 1200 rpm fans. A 60mm will fit on top also but, depending on MoBo choice, may block access to some MoBo features which require pull fans to be removed. A Monsta (86mm) fits on bottom but it blocks teh cable pass through grommet which ya may want for ya bottom fans.

As for the pump, I went with the Swiftech 35x2 based upon the review at Martinsliquidlab .... it has an optional heat sink, stand and fan which makes the whole thing almost as big as a bay res. Though at full speed a 3rx can be louder than a D5, I wanted a bit more oomph and since I never break about 50% of speed, the pump runs dead silent. I mounted the pump under the top HD cage (removed the bottom cage) relocating the pump mount to it's alternate location. I actually used two of the rubber coated plates, having obtained one from a fellow OCN member. Of course that wouldn't be possible with a 480 down there, perhaps a 360.....certainly no need to go with a bay res.






Quote:
Originally Posted by ocCuS View Post

So it´s official that the white Primo will be released at the end of April (or begin of May) and not like Brian from phanteks posted here or in the phanteks forum now at the end of March.(

The January release dates for the accessories was official too smile.gif ..... as were the various original release dates for the black enthoo and most recently the white one.

Design .... fabrication ..... testing ..... redesign ..... fabrication .... retesting ..... review .... final production .... packaging .... shipping .... customs..... one bump along the way and all the remaining steps get pushed back.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/26/14 at 8:49am
911 Carrera
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911 Carrera
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post #3442 of 18679
Hi,

thanks for your answers about airflow! I gonna give that positiv pressure a try =)
And I have another question =)
To the people, not using a fan controller: How do you manage a suitable fan control? I was about to put all my fans on this PWM Converter that came with the case and connect it with the PWM CPU Fan plug on my mainboard (Gigabyte Z68X UD4 B3). But I am not sure if thats a good idea because then I only control the fans on the basis of the CPU temp. So I thought about splitting the bot 480 rad and the top 420 rad fans and let only the bot fans connected to the PWM converter. This means i would connect the top rad fans to another slot of the main board and try to control those fans on basis of the GFX card. Does anyone have a better idea? Or suggestions?
Thx!

JBC
post #3443 of 18679
Letting the cpu pwm control the fans is fine. With custom watercooling your graphics cards will never get hot enough to require ramping up the fans while the cpu is still too cool to do so.
post #3444 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisnyc75 View Post

Letting the cpu pwm control the fans is fine. With custom watercooling your graphics cards will never get hot enough to require ramping up the fans while the cpu is still too cool to do so.

Having that discussion now with Pepe.....

http://www.overclock.net/t/1473352/pwm-related-fan-control-question/10#post_22011107


Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBeeCee View Post

Hi,
To the people, not using a fan controller: How do you manage a suitable fan control? I was about to put all my fans on this PWM Converter that came with the case and connect it with the PWM CPU Fan plug on my mainboard (Gigabyte Z68X UD4 B3). But I am not sure if thats a good idea because then I only control the fans on the basis of the CPU temp. So I thought about splitting the bot 480 rad and the top 420 rad fans and let only the bot fans connected to the PWM converter. This means i would connect the top rad fans to another slot of the main board and try to control those fans on basis of the GFX card. Does anyone have a better idea? Or suggestions?

Using PWM control via feed from CPU header has one advantage....you can use more than 8 Phanteks fans on it since you can use the PSU Molex to add power. The math says I prolly shouldn't use more than 6 (6 x 0.14) = 0.84 watts in 1 amp header. But when i first connected them i had forgotten that 2 of the feeds had splitters so my 6 connections were 8 fans and it didn't blow up... your mileage may vary.

Here's my plan once I can get my hands on a 3rd Fan Control PCB

CPU Header => Pump No. 1 (PWM)
CPU-OPT Header => Pump No. 2 (PWM)

CHA_1 Header => PCB 1 => 5 Case Fans (VV)
CHA_2 Header => PCB 2 => 6 Fans on top XT45-420 (VV)
CHA_3 Header => PCB 3 => 4 Fans on bit UT60-280 (VV)

In Asus FanXpert2, I have 4 fans curves set up labeled

"CPU fan" - This curve controls the Swiftech 35x2 Pump(s) .... Unfortunately I can not relabel this "35X2 Pump"
"Chassis Fans" - This curve controls the 5 case fans (2 front, 1 rear, 2 side panel)
"UT60-280 Fans" - This curve controls the 4 fans (2 push, 2 pull)
"XT45-420 Fans" - This curve controls the 4 fans (3 push, 3 pull)

Right now, until I get the 3rd PCB, I have all 5 push fans on the UT60 curve, once it's available will add the PCB and switch around. There are 3 PCB mounts..... one beneath the one that came with case and one at top near the 5.25" drive bays.

Controlling the fans based upon GFX card temps won't accomplish anything .... no matter what is going on your GFX temps will not get within 35-40C of being anything to worry about. Controlling based upon water temps seems most logical but ill serves during CPU stress testing as coolant temps rise only about 2C above idle under P95 (with a system designed for 2 hi end GFX cards, the CPUs heat load to the system is puny so even at max OC, it hardly affects coolant temps.

Controlling based upon CPU temps covers all ya worries as ya GPU temps will never exceed ya CPU temps and GPU temps will never get above 50C .... no where neat the 80+C where you would even start to worry. There's a more detailed response in the thread I linked to above.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/26/14 at 12:51pm
911 Carrera
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post #3445 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

Having that discussion now with Pepe.....

http://www.overclock.net/t/1473352/pwm-related-fan-control-question/10#post_22011107

Yeah, I mean you *could* try to split the fan control or modulate some of them based on gpu temp, but i don't see why you'd want to. GPUs dont generate anywhere near as much heat as a cpu, so with even the most minimal fan speed to keep your cpu cool under low-level activity will adequately cool your GPUs. And in the rare event that your GPUs actually do heat up enough to require more fan speed to keep them cool (running Furmark or something, I guess) the heat generated will also cause your cpu to get slightly warmer because the water will be more saturated with heat when it gets to the gpu, so the fans will, again, ramp up on their own based on CPU pwm.

That's just my 2 cents, though. I'm sure you could get way WAY more ocd about it if you really wanted to, it's just not something I've ever seen any reason to worry about. smile.gif Even in heavy gaming, my GPUs never break 40c and that's with the fans operating at ~800rpm just off cpu pwm control.
post #3446 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisnyc75 View Post

Yeah, I mean you *could* try to split the fan control or modulate some of them based on gpu temp, but i don't see why you'd want to. GPUs dont generate anywhere near as much heat as a cpu, so with even the most minimal fan speed to keep your cpu cool under low-level activity will adequately cool your GPUs. And in the rare event that your GPUs actually do heat up enough to require more fan speed to keep them cool (running Furmark or something, I guess) the heat generated will also cause your cpu to get slightly warmer because the water will be more saturated with heat when it gets to the gpu, so the fans will, again, ramp up on their own based on CPU pwm.

That's just my 2 cents, though. I'm sure you could get way WAY more ocd about it if you really wanted to, it's just not something I've ever seen any reason to worry about. smile.gif Even in heavy gaming, my GPUs never break 40c and that's with the fans operating at ~800rpm just off cpu pwm control.

Depends on the GPU. For example, R9 290x cards will easily topple 90C on air. I've seen them hit 100C playing BF4 and they are soooo ridiculously loud I have to think they were designed to be put underwater. If I was running those cards in my loop I'd hate to think that they would have to raise the loop temps so much as to raise my CPU temp enough to cause the PWM to ramp up my fan speeds. That's crazy. You'd be MUCH better off to use a fan controller set to auto control fan speeds based on loop temps.
post #3447 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

Depends on the GPU. For example, R9 290x cards will easily topple 90C on air. I've seen them hit 100C playing BF4 and they are soooo ridiculously loud I have to think they were designed to be put underwater. If I was running those cards in my loop I'd hate to think that they would have to raise the loop temps so much as to raise my CPU temp enough to cause the PWM to ramp up my fan speeds. That's crazy. You'd be MUCH better off to use a fan controller set to auto control fan speeds based on loop temps.

True, but even the hottest gpu doesn't actually generate half as much heat as a basic cpu. They GET hotter because the gpu cooling solutions we have available to us are all basically crap. If you were to remove all cooling solutions, you could run a GPU for a minute or two before it would melt down. A cpu, even a very low end basic one, would melt down instantly. CPUs just generate WAY more heat than a gpu does. Inserted into a moderately-competent custom loop, even a R9 shouldn't get hot enough to require individual control, because even the most basic loop capable of keeping a cpu cool will do a MORE than adequate job keeping a GPU cool.

But again, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of "it really doesn't matter". If you really wanted to dig into it for maximum loop efficiency, you certainly could parse the details and go with a rambus controller, loop temperature sensor, etc. I just don't think doing so is really going to make much difference in the ultimate result.
post #3448 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisnyc75 View Post

True, but even the hottest gpu doesn't actually generate half as much heat as a basic cpu. They GET hotter because the gpu cooling solutions we have available to us are all basically crap. If you were to remove all cooling solutions, you could run a GPU for a minute or two before it would melt down. A cpu, even a very low end basic one, would melt down instantly. CPUs just generate WAY more heat than a gpu does. Inserted into a moderately-competent custom loop, even a R9 shouldn't get hot enough to require individual control, because even the most basic loop capable of keeping a cpu cool will do a MORE than adequate job keeping a GPU cool.

But again, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of "it really doesn't matter". If you really wanted to dig into it for maximum loop efficiency, you certainly could parse the details and go with a rambus controller, loop temperature sensor, etc. I just don't think doing so is really going to make much difference in the ultimate result.

I agree that the argument changes if ya have a low to moderate range GPU but does anyone put those under water ?.... I don't see a lot of blocks available for all but the top 3 cards in a series. If budget limited, before dishing out the cash for WC, I certainly would be, say:

Investing in a 780 instead of a 760
Getting two 780s instead of a one

Simply put, for a GPU to get down to comparable heat output as a CPU, I simply can't see any value in putting a 130 watt GPU under water.

I think the GPU cooling we have is amazing ..... not that it is a result of superb design or anything..... it doesn't need to be. The massive GPU block outperforms the CPU blocks simply because if sheer size. It keeps 300 watts of heat at 40C (more than 40C of where'd I'd start to worry) .... the CPU block struggles to stay in mid 70s at 130 watts ...within 10C (20C in gaming) of where I 'd start to worry.

Because of the GPU WB being so massive, we see drastic drops in temps under water....something we don't see with CPUs. CPUs are held back by the small die size.....double their dimensions and we'd have 4 times the surface area from which to pull heat. I ran OCCT on the stock cooler and it shut down within cupla minutes as it exceeded the utility's alarm, setting of 85C .....but I can hit 84C under P95 at stock speeds with the supremacy and 700mm of rad. I am unable to create any circumstance where my GPU temps ever exceed my CPU temps.

If ya wanna see the failing of speed control based upon coolant temps.... just run P95....with voltage up at 1.28 under adaptive at stock multiplier, my coolant temp is about 2 C over idle and max core temp hits 84C with fans at 50% speed ..... I get down to 76C at 90% speed.

So to stay at 76ish under P95, I'd wanna have fan speeds at 90% at a coolant temp of about 25C.
I do not want my fans well above audible range at 90% when gaming .... with GPUs at 40C, CPU at 65C and coolant at 30C quiet is way more important that cooler temps merely for the sake of cooler temps...... there's simply nothing to be concerned about at those temps so I'll take the quiet.

Those two conditions are mutually exclusive.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/26/14 at 1:17pm
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911 Carrera
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post #3449 of 18679
No, I think you're misunderstanding my point....

A GPU does not produce as much heat as a CPU - it doesn't matter what level GPU we're talking about, they just don't produce as much heat as fast as a CPU. That is not to say they don't GET AS HOT as a cpu; there's a difference between "produce as much heat" and "get as hot". The former refers to the raw output of temperature; the latter refers to the net effect of that output of temperature given the installed cooling solution. The reason we see GPUs get upwards of 90c is that the cooling solutions on graphics cards simply are not anywhere near as efficient as CPU cooling solutions. And this is a direct result of the fact that the GPU doesn't NEED cooling that effective, because they don't produce as much heat (and the fact that the physical design & placement of graphics cards leaves us with few options for bigger/better air cooling solutions). If you were able to somehow put a tower heatsink and cpu cooling fans on a gpu, you would likely see temperatures similar to what we see on a gpu under water.

The surface area of gpu waterblocks is irrelevant -- the only reason they have more surface area is for "full coverage" cooling of the dram and vregs. A basic "universal" waterblock is the same size as a cpu waterblock (slightly larger since the gpu chip is larger). They're more efficient at cooling the GPU because it simply produces less heat, and that lower heat production is more efficiently cooled by even moderate watercooling (which is obviously way beyond what even high end air can do here). This becomes immediately evident when you see performance benchmarks testing old model H50 or H60 watercooling units applied to a graphics card. With old tech, minimal rad space, and very basic cooling capacity we see temperatures kept at about the same level as they are with high end custom watercooling. Again, they're not actually producing very much heat, so even very basic cooling performs more than adequately.

All of which brings me back to my point that ANY watercooling, with even minimal fan speed, can adequately cool a gpu under just about any circumstance.

Unless I'm grossly misinformed about GPU heat dynamics, which isn't completely out of the realm of possibility. wink.gif
Edited by chrisnyc75 - 3/26/14 at 2:05pm
post #3450 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisnyc75 View Post

No, I think you're misunderstanding my point....

A GPU does not produce as much heat as a CPU - it doesn't matter what level GPU we're talking about, they just don't produce as much heat as fast as a CPU. That is not to say they don't GET AS HOT as a cpu; there's a difference between "produce as much heat" and "get as hot". The former refers to the raw output of temperature; the latter refers to the net effect of that output of temperature given the installed cooling solution. The reason we see GPUs get upwards of 90c is that the cooling solutions on graphics cards simply are not anywhere near as efficient as CPU cooling solutions. And this is a direct result of the fact that the GPU doesn't NEED cooling that effective, because they don't produce as much heat (and the fact that the physical design & placement of graphics cards leaves us with few options for bigger/better air cooling solutions). If you were able to somehow put a tower heatsink and cpu cooling fans on a gpu, you would likely see temperatures similar to what we see on a gpu under water.

The surface area of gpu waterblocks is irrelevant -- the only reason they have more surface area is for "full coverage" cooling of the dram and vregs. A basic "universal" waterblock is the same size as a cpu waterblock (slightly larger since the gpu chip is larger). They're more efficient at cooling the GPU because it simply produces less heat, and that lower heat production is more efficiently cooled by even moderate watercooling (which is obviously way beyond what even high end air can do here). This becomes immediately evident when you see performance benchmarks testing old model H50 or H60 watercooling units applied to a graphics card. With old tech, minimal rad space, and very basic cooling capacity we see temperatures kept at about the same level as they are with high end custom watercooling. Again, they're not actually producing very much heat, so even very basic cooling performs more than adequately.

All of which brings me back to my point that ANY watercooling, with even minimal fan speed, can adequately cool a gpu under just about any circumstance.

Unless I'm grossly misinformed about GPU heat dynamics, which isn't completely out of the realm of possibility. wink.gif

I don't understand...we have more than a semantic issue here .....heat by definition is measured in watts .... isn't 300 watts bigger than 130 ? After that, I have trouble making sense of anything as it's all based upon the assumption that the 300 watt output of the GPU isn't bigger than 130 watt heat output of the CPU.

The reason we see air cooled GPU solutions getting so hot is simply the ratio of watts to cooler surface area. It gets hotter because 300 watts is 2.3 times bigger than 130. Cooling is very simple, there is no magic to it.....the greater the surface area to watt ratio, the greater the cooling. Think of room heating .....using 1000 watt electric heaters plugged into outlets....will not two 1000 watt heaters produce twice the heat as one ? Will not 12 feet of baseboard heating produce twice the heat as 6 ? Will not a 120 x 480 rad get rid of twice as much heat as a 120 x 240 ?

The following statement that surface area is irrelevant is harder to understand. We both build cabins and insulate the walls with magic insulation that results in 0 heat loss. However, we don't have enough for the ceilings. All of the heat loss is therefore going to be thru the ceiling. My cabin is 10' x 10' ....your cabin has twice the area at 10' x 20'. According to the laws of thermodynamics, is it not an absolute certainty that you will lose twice as much heat thru your ceiling as I will thru mine ? Again, if surface area is irrelevant, then a 120 x 240mm rad will provide the exact same cooling as a 120 x 480 mm rad.

The GPU WB has a huge thermal mass......heat travels quickly thru a metal medium rapidly spreading out from the contact areas to the giant 4" x 10" metal block. The CPU has a measly 2" metal block. When you are cooking, the metal sides of a pot even though they are not in direct contact with the burner below provide almost as much BTUs into what's in the pot as the bottom because the temperature of the sides is very close to the temperature of the bottom.....

The coefficient of heat transfer for copper is 401, nickel is 91 and water is 0.58, air is 0.024

Your heat transfer from the contact area to the surrounding metal is 100 times more effective than water is at picking it up off the copper.....your water contact area with the metal / water interface is several orders of magnitude bigger ...guessing 16 square inches for the GPU versus CPU block. In addition the GPU block and backplate has direct exposure to moving air over some 50 square inches of metal and 30 sq inches of plexi to the CPU block's 4 sq in.

Even forgetting all this.... let's just look at the rads (all fans fixed at 900 rpm) .... what raises the water temps more ?

When running prime95 my water temps climb about 2C over idle..... when running Furmark, my water temps are up 9.6C @ 33.6.

Now the CPU is adding 40 watts under Furmark and GPUz reports 9.6% (25 watts) per card under P95 .... so, adjusting for the 50-40, we have to take off 10 / 130 * 2C to account for that so taking off 0.15C fromo the 2C temp rise from the CPU accounts for the relative difference. So we have a 9.6 rise (4.8C each) for the two GPUs .... and a 1.85 rise for the CPU

Doing the math, 4.8C/1.85C tells me that the GPUs are each putting 2.6 times the heat into the water as the CPU is .... Now let's compare that with the relative wattages .... 300 watts for the card / 130 watts for the CPU = 2.31

So based upon wattages of the respective components .... we should expect the 300 watt GPU to produce 2.31 times the temperature rise as the CPU.....and the measured temperature rise of the GPU was 2.6 times the CPU.....thought it would be closer....but clearly the GPUs are producing 2+ times the heat as the CPU.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/26/14 at 4:45pm
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2 x SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256BW 2.5" 256GB (2 x Seagate ST2000DX001 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cach... Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blue Ray Writer 1 x Alphacool NexXxoS XT45-420 + 1 x Alphacool ... 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
1 x Swiftech 35x2 w/ Heatsink and NB Fan EK -MultiOption RES X3 250 White Acetal Reservoir 5 x PH-F140SP_BK_BLED + 5 x PH-F140SP_BK E22 Rigid 10/12 Acrylic Tubing and Bitspower Ma... 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
2 x Reeven Six Eyes Fan Controller Windows 7 64 Bit Professional OEM ASUS VG248QE Black 23" 144 Hz Monitor Logitech G19s 920-004985 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Seasonic X-1250 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Ultimate Chassis Asus RoG GX950 Laser Mouse  Logitech Z5500 
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911 Carrera
(20 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel w/ EK Supremacy Cooling Block - Clean P... Asus Maximus VI Formula 2 x Asus GTX 780 DCII w/ EK Full Cover Blocks a... Mushkin Red Line Ridgeback 2 x 8GB DDR302400 10... 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
2 x SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series MZ-7PD256BW 2.5" 256GB (2 x Seagate ST2000DX001 2TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cach... Asus BW-12B1ST/BLK/G/AS Blue Ray Writer 1 x Alphacool NexXxoS XT45-420 + 1 x Alphacool ... 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
1 x Swiftech 35x2 w/ Heatsink and NB Fan EK -MultiOption RES X3 250 White Acetal Reservoir 5 x PH-F140SP_BK_BLED + 5 x PH-F140SP_BK E22 Rigid 10/12 Acrylic Tubing and Bitspower Ma... 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
2 x Reeven Six Eyes Fan Controller Windows 7 64 Bit Professional OEM ASUS VG248QE Black 23" 144 Hz Monitor Logitech G19s 920-004985 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Seasonic X-1250 Phanteks Enthoo Primo Ultimate Chassis Asus RoG GX950 Laser Mouse  Logitech Z5500 
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Reply
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