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[Official] Case PHANTEKS Case Club for lovers & owners - Page 363

post #3621 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seid Dark View Post

So with 780 Classy bay res is the only option if you don't want to cut the res bracket? Massive disappointment. I thought Enthoo Primo was supposed to be enthusiast case but I guess they forgot about custom pcb's altogether rolleyes.gif GJ Phanteks. Really great design work there.

It's definitely the one glaring flaw in the design. However, that said, it's really not that difficult to dremel out the notch an inch or so to allow for fitting any gpu you want.
post #3622 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by kangk81 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Out comes the good old file and elbow grease
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

And no more obstruction.

I though Phantek should have this covered since the bottom of the case was marketed to hold up to a 480mm rad

I wouldn't call it a flaw. I'm not sure why there should be any need to have every screw in every fan on the bottom of the rad seeing as you also have the weight of the rad helping to hold everything in place. I have (well, 'had' actually, as I currently have most everything stripped down again) my 360 monsta in the bottom and the cross-piece blocking one of fan screws didn't really phase me. I'd be totally good with 2 screws per fan down there to be honest.
post #3623 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

I wouldn't call it a flaw. I'm not sure why there should be any need to have every screw in every fan on the bottom of the rad seeing as you also have the weight of the rad helping to hold everything in place. I have my 360 in the bottom and the cross-piece blocking one of fan screws didn't really phase me. I'd be totally good with 2 screws per fan down there to be honest.

I'm just being fussy about not having it screwed down.

Perhaps it has got something to do with my job as an aerospace technician..... ya know.. where we gotta screw every loose screw.
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post #3624 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by kangk81 View Post

I'm just being fussy about not having it screwed down.

Perhaps it has got something to do with my job as an aerospace technician..... ya know.. where we gotta screw every loose screw.

lol, I sure hope when you go to launch your Primo into space that the bottom support doesn't fail where you weakened it when you filed it. It'd be such a shame to see such a nice case coming apart under all the g-forces. eek.gif
post #3625 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

Where do you get that at?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1309645/bundymania-user-review-triple-radiator-360-roundup-with-22-rads/

Monsta beats ALL other rads in performance at speeds of 1200rpms and above with single fans, and as I've found the difference is exaggerated at even lower fan speeds in push-pull (and no one should be running a monsta with a single set of fans in any case imho).

No one said it didn't do any better.....just said it wasn't a lot. The UT delivers 9 watts less or about 95% of what the Monsta can deliver

Data from the curves .....360 rads @ 1250 rpm ...1st three were martins

ST30 = 181 watts
XT45 = 183
UT60 = 188
Monsta = 197

Let's look at just martins data for a second ....

Adding 50% thickness to a 30mm rad gets us just 1.1 % more cooling
Adding 33% thickness to a 45mm rad gets us just 2.7 % more cooling
Adding 100% thickness to a 30mm rad gets us just 3.9 % more cooling

following the logic .....

So given the above, is it logical to assume that adding 43% thickness to a 60mm rad is suddenly gonna produce double digit increases ???

The reason we don't see much out of a 60mm rad as compared with the 30mm is that the air temperature changes as it goes thru the rad..... here's what's happening now running prime 95 with AVX..... measuring 23.7C air at entry is increasing to 25.2C on the other side of the rad and watertemps at 26.0 .... so with my 45mm rad it's dropping roughly 0.25C per 10mm. So....

At 1st 10 mm Delta T = 1.25
At 2nd 10 mm Delta T = 1.00
At 3rd 10 mm Delta T = 0.75
At 4th 10 mm Delta T = 0.50
At 5th 10 mm Delta T = 0.25

The radiator is 5 times more effective in the 1st 10mm than it will be in the last 10mm as the intake air warms on it's way thru. On top of that.... no matter what the fan setup you use....two fans will always push more air thru a thin rad as a thick one and this is a mass / balance equation. More air has more ability to absorb more heat tho a significant part of this is eaten up by less contact time.

I have to go back in the thread and get the original Monsta published source .... the other ones I remember cause I visit often. Never went back to the Monsta cause I couldn't make a case for it at any rpm I'd be willing to run at. I had a bunch of potential sources listed and the one I thought it was isn't it.

http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/12/alphacool-nexxxos-ut60-360-radiator/4/
http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.com/Radiator-Fan-Orientation-And-Shroud-Testing-Review.html

Martin has indicated push / pull can add anywhere from 10-30% performance difference..... I used 21% in my tables which is from the Martins 2nd link above IIRC. I will be able to conform exactly what P/P does w/ Phanteks fans as soon as I get that 3rd PCB.

With regard to your rads giving widely different results .... I had the same experience....My UT60 280 was giving me 1.3C (in to out drop) with the XT45 was giving me 1.0C ..... makes no sense right ? Took off all the fan grilles and filters and mystery solved..... now the XT45 was doing 1.3C and the UT60 was doing 1.0C but Delta T overall dropped 4.6C by being able to move more air thru the rad.

Looking at the link you used, I note the following

We see the XT45 at 7.2C on Bundy and Martin said 183 watts
We see the UT60 at 6.1C on Bundy and Martin said 188 watts

So.... either one of these tests is borked .... or 5 watts = 1.1C temp difference.

Now we look at the Monsta at 5.6C or 0.5C difference .... based upon the above, what would be the corresponding change in watts ? .... well if 5 watts gets us 1.1C, it should be safe to assume that another 0.5C would be in the neighborhood of 2.5 watts. The other sources had it at 9 watts.

Looking closer.....

Martin has the RX360 coming in 4 places behind the UT360, Bundy has the RX finishing 4 places above the UT360 ?
Martin has the SR-1 360 coming in 5 places behind the UT360, Bundy has the RX finishing 3 places above the UT360 ?

There are some obvious issues with testing in a case as opposed to a lab setting like Martins..... For one....who the heck cares if your Delta T is 5 or 6C ? I didn't build my system to accommodate a 140 watt CPU load under Prime 95 .... I built it to keep everything cool under a 700 watt load. But my biggest issue with "in case" testing is the number of variables. The fact that testing with the measly output of a CPU is barely indicative of conditions with watercooled system that have cards in SLI / CF. With in case testing, your results are inevitably skewed by the low load and cooler air temps inside the case. I'm seeing a measly Delta T of 2.3C and just 1.5C change in air temps across the rad running now with P95. How will the results change when ya have 10C air change across the rad ?

Bundy's results are interesting but in direct conflict with Martins. That doesn't make them invalid, just that I feel more comfy with the laboratory based testing that eliminates all other variables. If you are building a box for competitive OC'ing and won't be adding GFX cards, then that would be a great "go to" source.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Seid Dark View Post

So with 780 Classy bay res is the only option if you don't want to cut the res bracket? Massive disappointment. I thought Enthoo Primo was supposed to be enthusiast case but I guess they forgot about custom pcb's altogether rolleyes.gif GJ Phanteks. Really great design work there.

I don't think ya can blame the case manufacturer for an added feature that only works with 99% of the cards out there. Take out the bracket and you have what every other case manufacturer offers and the Classy fits just fine. I have an Asus DCII w/ custom PCB and it fits like the proverbial glove.

The Asus 780 DCII is listed as 11.3" long but when ya take off the air cooler, it's only 10.5".

Newegg reports the 780 Classified @ 10.5" which should be just fine.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130943

Newegg reports the 780 Ti Classified @ 11.0" which is doable with a little trim work
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487007

But again, the bracket is an option....it is by no means required.

The Enthoo could fit a 20.2" long GFX cards, 13.8 inches with HD cages in place which should be enough to fit most anything.

277mm (reservoir bracket installed w/o cover)
350mm (no reservoir bracket)
390mm (HDD cages in front position)
515mm (no HDD cages)

With your 11.0" (279.4 mm) Classy card ..... to keep the bracket, you'd have to shave 2mm off the side .... and drill your own res mounting holes about 5mm to the right....otherwise just treat it like any other case that doesn't provide a res bracket.....you can always mount the red off the bottom plate of the 5.25 bays


Quote:
Originally Posted by kangk81 View Post

I discovered a real flaw while fiddling with the case today.

The bottom piece which holds the built in fan filters has a piece in the center that obstructs fan screw fitment. All is fine if you're only fitting a 240mm or 280mm rad there because you can slide the fan to either side of the center piece. If you're using a 360mm rad, there are 2 fan screws right next to each other which doesn't matter whether you slide it one way or the other cos once of the screws will be blocked. I remembered leaving out 1 screw when I first built the case.

IIRC, .... it's only beeen 6 months but I'm old and have CRS Syndrome ..... All is fine if you are mounting a 240 or 280 cause Phanteks gives you mounting plate thingie which puts those screws about 1/2' higher smile.gif
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
CRS = Can't Remember Shi ..... er..... Can't Cemember Stuff


Quote:
Originally Posted by kangk81 View Post

I'm just being fussy about not having it screwed down.

Perhaps it has got something to do with my job as an aerospace technician..... ya know.. where we gotta screw every loose screw.

Hell I can't sleep at night if my Phillips Head Screws on the fan mountings don't look like:

+..........................+..+..........................+..+..........................+
.
.
.
.
.
+..........................+..+..........................+..x..........................+


What .... damn it ..... looks like a tear down in my future .... gotta fix that 2nd screw from the right on the bottom. But then again it's been 5 months and I haven't done my cables yet.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 4/18/14 at 3:07pm
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post #3626 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

No one said it didn't do any better.....just said it wasn't a lot. The UT delivers 9 watts less or about 95% of what the Monsta can deliver

Data from the curves .....360 rads @ 1250 rpm ...1st three were martins

ST30 = 181 watts
XT45 = 183
UT60 = 188
Monsta = 197

Let's look at just martins data for a second ....

Adding 50% thickness to a 30mm rad gets us just 1.1 % more cooling
Adding 33% thickness to a 45mm rad gets us just 2.7 % more cooling
Adding 100% thickness to a 30mm rad gets us just 3.9 % more cooling

following the logic .....

So given the above, is it logical to assume that adding 43% thickness to a 60mm rad is suddenly gonna produce double digit increases ???

The reason we don't see much out of a 60mm rad as compared with the 30mm is that the air temperature changes as it goes thru the rad..... here's what's happening now running prime 95 with AVX..... measuring 23.7C air at entry is increasing to 25.2C on the other side of the rad and watertemps at 26.0 .... so with my 45mm rad it's dropping roughly 0.25C per 10mm. So....

At 1st 10 mm Delta T = 1.25
At 2nd 10 mm Delta T = 1.00
At 3rd 10 mm Delta T = 0.75
At 4th 10 mm Delta T = 0.50
At 5th 10 mm Delta T = 0.25

The radiator is 5 times more effective in the 1st 10mm than it will be in the last 10mm as the intake air warms on it's way thru. On top of that.... no matter what the fan setup you use....two fans will always push more air thru a thin rad as a thick one and this is a mass / balance equation. More air has more ability to absorb more heat tho a significant part of this is eaten up by less contact time.

I have to go back in the thread and get the original Monsta published source .... the other ones I remember cause I visit often. Never went back to the Monsta cause I couldn't make a case for it at any rpm I'd be willing to run at. I had a bunch of potential sources listed and the one I thought it was isn't it.

http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/12/alphacool-nexxxos-ut60-360-radiator/4/
http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.com/Radiator-Fan-Orientation-And-Shroud-Testing-Review.html

Martin has indicated push / pull can add anywhere from 10-30% performance difference..... I used 21% in my tables which is from the Martins 2nd link above IIRC. I will be able to conform exactly what P/P does w/ Phanteks fans as soon as I get that 3rd PCB.

With regard to your rads giving widely different results .... I had the same experience....My UT60 280 was giving me 1.3C (in to out drop) with the XT45 was giving me 1.0C ..... makes no sense right ? Took off all the fan grilles and filters and mystery solved..... now the XT45 was doing 1.3C and the UT60 was doing 1.0C but Delta T overall dropped 4.6C by being able to move more air thru the rad.

Looking at the link you used, I note the following

We see the XT45 at 7.2C on Bundy and Martin said 183 watts
We see the UT60 at 6.1C on Bundy and Martin said 188 watts

So.... either one of these tests is borked .... or 5 watts = 1.1C temp difference.

Now we look at the Monsta at 5.6C or 0.5C difference .... based upon the above, what would be the corresponding change in watts ? .... well if 5 watts gets us 1.1C, it should be safe to assume that another 0.5C would be in the neighborhood of 2.5 watts. The other sources had it at 9 watts.

Looking closer.....

Martin has the RX360 coming in 4 places behind the UT360, Bundy has the RX finishing 4 places above the UT360 ?
Martin has the SR-1 360 coming in 5 places behind the UT360, Bundy has the RX finishing 3 places above the UT360 ?

There are some obvious issues with testing in a case as opposed to a lab setting like Martins..... For one....who the heck cares if your Delta T is 5 or 6C ? I didn't build my system to accommodate a 140 watt CPU load under Prime 95 .... I built it to keep everything cool under a 700 watt load. But my biggest issue with "in case" testing is the number of variables. The fact that testing with the measly output of a CPU is barely indicative of conditions with watercooled system that have cards in SLI / CF. With in case testing, your results are inevitably skewed by the low load and cooler air temps inside the case. I'm seeing a measly Delta T of 2.3C and just 1.5C change in air temps across the rad running now with P95. How will the results change when ya have 10C air change across the rad ?

Bundy's results are interesting but in direct conflict with Martins. That doesn't make them invalid, just that I feel more comfy with the laboratory based testing that eliminates all other variables. [...]


Where exactly did you get your data on the Monsta?
Because Martin never tested one.
Your extrapolations regarding the Monsta are just wrong.

Aaaaaand there's good reason why Bundy's testing is held in higher regard throughout the world, especially in Europe, than Martin's, because Bundy's testing more accurately reflects other's real-life results. Martin is a DIY reviewer with no better 'lab' or methodology. Only here on OCN is Martin given some kind of 'best data' / 'best tester' status. If there's any sort of discrepency between them, I'll take Bundy's results > Martin's any day imho, because I keep seeing the same things on my end.
Edited by Unicr0nhunter - 4/18/14 at 4:47pm
post #3627 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicr0nhunter View Post

[1.] Where exactly did you get your data on the Monsta?
[2.] Because Martin never tested one.
[3.] Your extrapolations regarding the Monsta are just wrong.

Aaaaaand there's good reason why Bundy's testing is held in higher regard throughout the world, especially in Europe, than Martin's, because Bundy's testing more accurately reflects other's real-life results. Martin is a DIY reviewer with no better 'lab' or methodology. Only here on OCN is Martin given some kind of 'best data' / 'best tester' status. If there's any sort of discrepency between them, I'll take Bundy's results > Martin's any day imho, because I keep seeing the same things on my end.

Read the post please ... pardon my editing of your post to add numbers to the referenced question / statements

-To your question 1 ... the post you quoted states:
Quote:
I have to go back in the thread and get the original Monsta published source ..

I haven't as yet had time to reread the 3600+ post thread.

-To your statement 2 ... I never said he did..... the post you quoted states:
Quote:
Data from the curves .....360 rads @ 1250 rpm ...1st three were martins

ST30 = 181 watts
XT45 = 183
UT60 = 188
Monsta = 197

-To your mistatement 3 They were not extrapolations.... as indicated above, they were from a published source, I recorded the points on a curve from actual testing

I'm also drawing on experience .... PC Water cooling is mostly a "seat of the pants" industry .... the volume simply doesn't support extensive / expensive data testing. Good portion of its industry leaders started in a garage. But just go out and look under the hood of ya car .... seen any thick rads in the last 20 years ? My son just replaced the one in his jeep and I pondered it's design versus my 1st car .... my guess is it puts out more heat that your PC....and even my old 1965 Pontiac tire screecher at 2.5" was thinner than a monsta .... just about as thick as a UT60

As a practicing engineer involved in plant and building design, I am involved in the cooling industry on a large scale. I will always take science over seat of the pants, "I have no idea how many variables are involved". These are billion dollar industries and they do have the wherewithal to do extensive testing because it pays big time in profits with that many units. Thermodynamics is thermodynamics ..... the laws of physics are not suspended because something is put inside a PC. As for who is respected where, I agree you will see a regional variation.... we still have people that are "respected" in some circles who argue that global warming is a myth. I based my system design on Martin's data and the temperature testing (6 temp sensors, 3 power sensors) showed a variation in single digit % points.

I have some questions for ya:

-What does Bundy's test indicate other than how well the entire system (air + water cooling) was cooled while running Prime95 ?
-How do we account for the heat removed by the case cooling so as to get an idea of what the rad is doing ?
-How does this change things when running Furmark w/ 2 GFX cards .... 700 watts versus 200 watts ?
-How do you explain away the fact that heat transfer efficiency decreases as air passes through a rad ?
-By the time the air gets to your extra 26mm, it's already getting close to the water temperature at which point heat transfer efficiency has dropped precipitously, so how can we expect a significant "increase" ?
-When I duplicated, Bundy's test, my air temps exiting the rads was just 0.8C below the water temps. How much extra heat transfer can we expect from that extra 40mm of thickness with just 0.8C delta T ?
-Why does the wattage go up so little from the 30 to 45 to 60 mm rads ?
-After those miniscule increases from 30 to 60, what would the logic be that is behind the expectation of a huge change with the Monsta ?
-Why has the auto industry moved to thin radiators ? (We have 5 cars, Porsche 911, Cherokee, Xterra, Volkswagon and Tuscon), Three of em are 1" thick, Tuscon is 3/4"
-Why are air conditioner heat exchangers all < 1" ?
-Why is the evaporator in our 48" commercial freezer only 1/2" thick ? and the heat exchanger on top a stack of four 1/8" thick radiators ?
-If thicker rads do something, why are none of these industries using them ?
-What special conditions exist for PC Rads to make the application of thermodynamic principles different from any of those industries ?

Now....there are conditions where the Monsta can excel....just not in the scenario under discussion. At 1200 rpm, the speed of the air thru the rad allows sufficient contact time with the fins so as to allow heat transfer such that the air temp is close to the water temperature at exit.... this is why extra depth does little.... at water temp of 32C, when 22C ambient air hits those fins, heat transfer is twice that as it is say half way thru at 27C.... by the time it gets to bottom, its already within 1 - 2C of the water temp.

Now at 2200 rpm, the air moves faster ..... so it has less contact time and as such, by the time it gets half way thru the XT45 or UT60, it won't have reached 27C ..... by the time it reaches the exit, it won't be as close to water temps..... now the extra 41 or 26mm has an opportunity to actually accomplish something of significance.
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post #3628 of 18679
I totally forgot about the built in rad bracket.. Another peculiarity I found is that the position of the 3rd set of fans has a piece of metal that is not perforated. Airflow seems to be 50% lower there as well. Perhaps I'll get some non-threaded standoffs to prop the entire thing up

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post #3629 of 18679
She Has Arrived:



biggrin.gif

Can I be added to the list?
post #3630 of 18679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astote-ap View Post

She Has Arrived:



biggrin.gif

Can I be added to the list?

Nice. Did they change anything on the case? Particularly the reservoir bracket and the bottom filters/feet?
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Overclock.net › Forums › Case Mods & Cases › Computer Cases › [Official] Case PHANTEKS Case Club for lovers & owners