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[TR] Microsoft warns it'll hand out zero days for Windows XP - Page 35

post #341 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by cook View Post

delay pay raises, take away bonuses, deny overtime, there are many quick ways to raise funds for major upgrades is completely ridiculous, especially when talking about updating a $250,000.00 machine because the $99.00 OS has reach EOL and the hardware won't run Crysis ( or even DOOM).

Why is that completely ludicrous? There is theory, and there is practice. A business has many options to raise funds and there is nothing wrong with what I am suggesting. It's been done and it will continue being a viable option. Unions re-negotiate contracts all the time. As with any employer-employee relationship. If you're gonna continue referencing your "superior" knowledge of corporate workings than I resign. I don't really come here to measure myself to other in every post.
Quote:
In the manufacturing world, there is nothing gained by replacing a 3 axis router's computer with a new one because it will still read the same file formats, still only utilize 3 axis's and be limited by bit material, working stock and machine envelope capacity. The machines are designed to work for 10-25 years, that is in fact how long they are amortized for. If we where to upgrade our entire system every time a new standard (16bit -32bit-64bit, DOS, UEFI) came out, we would be getting rid of our machines every 5-7 years. In reality the machines should have been built with an on board system and connected over the company Ethernet, which is pretty much the standard now you will see in many 3d printers, but some larger systems still use an external computer with very large controller cards occupying all the pci slots.

Then don't do it. I don't pretend to know everything about every industry in the world. I was speaking more about office machines. Either way, there is much to be gained from upgrading your equipment in any field. Of course there are times when it is prudent and non prudent to do so. An example would be the F35 JSF program vs upgrading existing designs.

What is limited by technology in that equation is the skill of the CAD designer who designs the part to go into the machine. I can assure you he likely has the newest and best in terms of software and hardware, at least I would hope so. CAD systems are built around a universal export model so even the oldest machines can read the files, it is the only reason the .stl, .step .x_t, and .iges file types exist.
Quote:
Its really not about the cost to upgrade a computer $500-1000, its about the cost to upgrade the hardware $5-15k. Virtual machines sometimes have a harder time accessing the actual hardware within a system than say a dual boot. Even still, there is the issue of hardware that is limited to 8-16bits, an Os that is also limited and the issue gets more complex as time passes.

You are telling me that these issues were impossible to solve in the last two years? You're telling me that there's absolutely no way to access superior performance and productivity through better software due to legacy hardware/software? That's just ridiculous to suggest. While there are many years that are restricted in that regard due to infrastructure, there's no way that the majority of any industry can see no benefit in upgrading their hardware and software. XP has long recouped it's cost, and I daresay the majority of assets purchased 5-10 years ago are close to recouping or giving their owners a 200% return on the investment. There's little excuse at this point.
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post #342 of 348
The basics of the discussion boil down to, if you use a computer for pleasure or consumer process, then upgrade. If you use it for business, evaluate the benefits vs. risks of upgrading. If you use it for machine specific tasks, well then make sure it's offline or well protected (by disabling internet use where possible) or you're SOL.
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post #343 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

Why is that completely ludicrous? There is theory, and there is practice. A business has many options to raise funds and there is nothing wrong with what I am suggestieng. It's been done and it will continue being a viable option. Unions re-negotiate contracts all the time. As with any employer-employee relationship. If you're gonna continue referencing your "superior" knowledge of corporate workings than I resign. I don't really come here to measure myself to other in every post.

For starters, you can't "deny overtime". You only let/make your employees do overtime when you desperately need the work done. There is a lot wrong with what you're suggesting... none of the things you suggested are a way to pay for computer upgrades. You don't give bonuses because you can't figure out anything better to do with the money... same with pay raises. You give a bonus or pay raise because you need to in order to make sure you hold on to that employee- they are not in any way optional things you can just pass off because you need extra cash.
Quote:
I don't pretend to know everything about every industry in the world. I was speaking more about office machines.

Then realize when you are out of your field of knowledge and stop suggesting solutions.
Quote:
What is limited by technology in that equation is the skill of the CAD designer who designs the part to go into the machine. I can assure you he likely has the newest and best in terms of software and hardware, at least I would hope so. CAD systems are built around a universal export model so even the oldest machines can read the files, it is the only reason the .stl, .step .x_t, and .iges file types exist.

We send CAD files to companies wanting to use our products all the time, and honestly most of them use 5-10 year old software. Heck my company was using some old windows 98 machine with ancient software, until about 2 years ago when they decided solidworks gave enough time benefit to be worth the investment.
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post #344 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by cook View Post

... Good luck finding a motherboard with an ISA slot on it, or even worse, 3 ISA slots, one for each axis as the controller card needs 3 cards to run the machine ...

http://www.bressner.co.uk/isa-motherboards
Edited by TELVM - 8/26/13 at 3:32pm
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post #345 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

For starters, you can't "deny overtime".

What? Sure you can. I've had done to me a couple of times.
Quote:
You only let/make your employees do overtime when you desperately need the work done.

I don't think so... Overtime is done when you benefit more from having things done faster. For example, when you want to start your next project faster, you offer overtime so you can start your next project sooner than you would otherwise. That has nothing to do with desperation. Is overtime and doubletime by design for desperately finishing work? Of course, but that's not the only way to use it.
Quote:
There is a lot wrong with what you're suggesting... none of the things you suggested are a way to pay for computer upgrades. You don't give bonuses because you can't figure out anything better to do with the money... same with pay raises. You give a bonus or pay raise because you need to in order to make sure you hold on to that employee- they are not in any way optional things you can just pass off because you need extra cash.

Shrug. I'm only suggestion options. I know Unions re-negotiate contracts with their contracts, as well the union members themselves. Especially large ones. This doesn't happen on paper, but Veteran's bonuses don't get held back on paper either. In theory everything is nice and organized, but in reality there's a lot of disgruntlement among every type of worker, white collar, blue collar, etc. All of the things I've mentioned have been done before and it's nothing new in most industries. Have employees left because of that? Sure, but it's not like all employees are irreplaceable.
Quote:
Then realize when you are out of your field of knowledge and stop suggesting solutions.

Fair enough, but forbidding me from talking about it is a bit too much. This is not my job so I don't see why I should watch what I say or not as long as it is within Forum rules. Whether you want to ridicule me or not is up to you, but I've been civil so far and I fail to see why I should stop making suggestions.
Quote:
We send CAD files to companies wanting to use our products all the time, and honestly most of them use 5-10 year old software. Heck my company was using some old windows 98 machine with ancient software, until about 2 years ago when they decided solidworks gave enough time benefit to be worth the investment.

You just back up my argument. There are lots of ways to raise the money to upgrade, and there are many benefits to upgrading.

There are lots of services and software that cater to both small companies and large companies. Whether it be company growth, sluggish hardware, or an expansion to a different field there are always options to raise money for upgrading, and there are benefits to doing so. Whether it is done, or whether it is cost effective or not depends on a case by case basis.

Either way, was there sufficient time to prepare for such a change? Certainly, and taking this announcement with any outrage is folly. If you are in any type of business, expecting anything else is expecting too much from a corporate entity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen00 View Post

The basics of the discussion boil down to, if you use a computer for pleasure or consumer process, then upgrade. If you use it for business, evaluate the benefits vs. risks of upgrading. If you use it for machine specific tasks, well then make sure it's offline or well protected (by disabling internet use where possible) or you're SOL.

Yeah, pretty much this. It's not like XP is suddenly defenseless either. There are still plenty of AV and Internet Security software that runs on XP.
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post #346 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

What? Sure you can. I've had done to me a couple of times.

That would be because they didn't need the work done, not because they wanted the money for something. Unless the company is run quite poorly, you aren't given overtime unless it's needed- and if it's needed, denying it will cost the company money, making it harder to spend, not gain it.

Anyways it's a moot point. Most situations that still have XP computers don't care about updates anyways.
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post #347 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

That would be because they didn't need the work done, not because they wanted the money for something. Unless the company is run quite poorly, you aren't given overtime unless it's needed- and if it's needed, denying it will cost the company money, making it harder to spend, not gain it.

I never argued otherwise. However, overtime is not always necessary and it is not always employed as a last resort. You can certainly deny it or offer it.
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Anyways it's a moot point. Most situations that still have XP computers don't care about updates anyways.

Why is that?
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post #348 of 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecstacy View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's a suggestion:

Can't companies just build/buy new computers and run their legacy programs from a Virtual Machine? You can build a system with an Intel Celeron G1610 (Basically an Ivy Bridge i3 running at 2.6 GHz, with 2 MB cache and no Hyper-Threading), 8GB memory, a 120GB Samsung 840 or Plextor M5S, an ASRock B75 motherboard with USB 3.0 and SATA III, Fractal Designs Core 1000, and a quality 300W Seasonic/430W Corsair power supply for about $280-300 before tax. If you cheap out on parts you can build something for even cheaper. Run Windows 95/98/XP with whatever legacy applications you need in a virtual machine and you're good to go, even virtualized it'll still run circles around older hardware.


Companies could also upgrade their machines and have a somewhat powerful older system to run all of their legacy software natively.

Frequently not- you can't really pass commands through a VM directly into an ISA or PCI card, so VMWare would have to support passing through the card's driver. If the machine is running Windows 98, the program commands the hardware directly without kernel involvement and using a VM would be completely impossible.

Beyond that, if you could, what would be the point? What would you gain? XP already supports many Ivy Bridge motherboards, etc. The VM would be just a vulnerable to attack as XP would be running directly on the hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSomPa View Post

Why is that completely ludicrous?

Let's say I'm a small manufacturing business, and I have a dozen machines that cost about $300,000 new. If Microsoft has a standard 5-7 year support cycle, that means I'm replacing on average 2 machines a year. Include the cost of downtime during replacement, reduced output during ramp-up (new machines always take a while to develop useful output and become reliable,) employee training, installation costs (electrician, mounting and leveling, shipping), we're talking probably about $500,000 a machine after all is said and done.

A million dollars a year easy. Just to keep an OS up to date? On what planet is that reasonable for a small business? Also, keep in mind that the machine may take 5 years or more to pay for itself! So the machine may no longer be profitable at all. Might as well not buy it at that point.

Or I could just use the machine for 20 years because it will last that long. Just let the PC sit there and run.
Edited by kevmatic - 8/27/13 at 5:21am
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