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Help With Audio Bitrates and File Sizes.

post #1 of 19
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Hey guys, I have a question concerning audio files and bitrates. I am only somewhat familiar with this subject. Also, I would prefer that people keep their opinions and suggestions as un-biased as possible.

I am using Xilisoft Audio Converter to alter the bitrate of my MP3 files so that they take up less space. I know that lowering the bitrate to a certain extent will lower audio quality. I am not an audiophile, so I dont care about "Best audio quality is 320k, FLAC, blahblahblah, anything less is garbage blahblah". My main concern is being able to have as many songs in as little space as possible without damaging the quality too severely so that it sounds audibly bad.

My question has 2 parts and I hope this is not confusing to some, as I am not completely certain on how to word this.

First, at what point, in lowering bitrate, will I begin to notice distortion at normal listening volumes? I want to maintain a fairly decent audio quality while still lowering the bitrate to allow for smaller file sizes. I don't listen to music extremely loud. And I am not very picky or analytical about "Lossless audio". I just want it to sound decent and not hear distortion or anything.

Secondly, are there any other filetypes that allow better audio quality at said lower bitrates than MP3? Xilisoft Audio Converter is able to convert into AAC, AC3, MP2, MP3, M4A, OGG, WAV, WMA.

Any suggestions or advice is appreciated.
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post #2 of 19
It really depends on what you're playing your music through - random headphones / generic speakers? I'd say for size / quality ratio stick with 192kbps MP3, you probably won't notice a difference between that and 128Kbps, but it again is going to depend on what you're using to listen to your music with.

You might want to take a couple songs that represent a majority of your catalog (i.e. a couple bass heavy, a couple with some good mids, some with good highs) and encode them in a couple different bit rates and see what you notice the difference between and what you're willing to live with. I'm personally not willing to live with loss of quality for the sake of space, i'd rather take a few less songs that i'm probably not going to listen to anyway than listen to crap quality, but thats just me smile.gif
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post #3 of 19
You're a little confused.

Digital music is analogue signals, divided into about 44.000 pieces per second.
Each one of those pieces is then "digitized" to represent what the original, analogue wave looked like a that instant in time. The digitized piece can be any number of bits. 4, 8, 12, 16, 24, 32, etc.. (as a reference, pre-recorded CD are 16 bit)

16 bit, for example: 1001001010001001
32 bit, for example 110100010111000101000101000001001

The more bits, the more accurately the digitized 1/44,000th of a second represents the original music wave form.

So, to answer your first question, neither I, nor anyone else, have any idea at what bitrate YOU will start hearing a difference. But I'd strongly suspect that 8 bit would be the lowest acceptable.

As for your second question, There are basically just two types of formats, lossless and lossy. Lossy formats "compress" the files by just leaving out some of the pieces (hopefully, ones that don't matter to much) so the resulting files tend to be smaller. Lossless formats, while compressing slightly, don't leave anything out (except for the WAV format which doesn't compress at all, and hence yields the largest files). MP3 is pretty much the most lossy format, but also yields the smallest files.

Again, no one knows what's best for you. Bitrate and format are all a matter of trial and error.


Edited by billbartuska - 8/22/13 at 3:49pm
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post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by appleg33k85 View Post

It really depends on what you're playing your music through - random headphones / generic speakers? I'd say for size / quality ratio stick with 192kbps MP3, you probably won't notice a difference between that and 128Kbps, but it again is going to depend on what you're using to listen to your music with.

You might want to take a couple songs that represent a majority of your catalog (i.e. a couple bass heavy, a couple with some good mids, some with good highs) and encode them in a couple different bit rates and see what you notice the difference between and what you're willing to live with. I'm personally not willing to live with loss of quality for the sake of space, i'd rather take a few less songs that i'm probably not going to listen to anyway than listen to crap quality, but thats just me smile.gif


For home use, I currently have Onboard HD audio that feeds into a Harman/Kardon AVR 25 II, with an unbranded set of 5.1 speakers (currently running only 2.1 because I cannot hear the center speaker) So basically just a stereo setup, left and right speakers. My truck will be getting a new Power Acoustik PL-10A stereo, which brought up this whole idea of quality and filesize differences.

Most of my listenting is through generic equipment. Like I said, I'm no audiophile, but I do care a little about audio quality. I'm not using or going to use really anything fancy, I just dont want to hear distortion and feedback like I currently do through the stock radio in my truck at mid and even low volumes.

So far, I have not personally been able to notice (with my stereo and speakers currently) any quality change from bitrates as low as 128kbps. Lower than that, I do start to hear distortion and clipping at certain volumes. Which was why I wondered if there were any other file types that would be any better, i.e higher bitrate without considerably larger filesize.
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post #5 of 19
I think I am a pretty normal/average person. I use onboard sound and I have a pair of VC02s, which cost me about $30-$40 at the time of purchase and I'm quite pleased with them.
128kb/s MP3s occasionally sound a bit degraded to me when I am paying attention. I'd prefer something in the range of 192kb/s which is pretty reasonable and not too big. I think the majority of people fall into this category.

Just try them out though, it's not hard.
post #6 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska View Post

You're a little confused.

Digital music is analogue signals, divided into about 44.000 pieces per second.
Each one of those pieces is then "digitized" to represent what the original, analogue wave looked like a that instant in time. The digitized piece can be any number of bits. 4, 8, 12, 16, 24, 32, etc.. (as a reference, pre-recorded CD are 16 bit)

16 bit, for example: 1001001010001001
32 bit, for example 110100010111000101000101000001001

The more bits, the more accurately the digitized 1/44,000th of a second represents the original music wave form.

So, to answer your first question, neither I, nor anyone else, have any idea at what bitrate YOU will start hearing a difference. But I'd strongly suspect that 8 bit would be the lowest acceptable.

As for your second question, There are basically just two types of formats, lossless and lossy. Lossy formats "compress" the files by just leaving out some of the pieces (hopefully, ones that don't matter to much) so the resulting files tend to be smaller. Lossless formats, while compressing slightly, don't leave anything out (except for the WAV format which doesn't compress at all, and hence yields the largest files). MP3 is pretty much the most lossy format, but also yields the smallest files.

Again, no one knows what's best for you. Bitrate and format are all a matter of trial and error.


I was aware that I dont have enough knowledge about audio and digital media to really understand more of what I was asking. And although I appreciate the time you took to explain what you did,. But please refrain from remarks like "I'm confused". This is a place to receive help, not belittlement......Moving on..

I'm presenting my question with the information to the best of my know-how and understanding. I know that there are different bitrates for audio files, and different audio file types. I know that reducing the bitrate will also reduce the sound quality in general. I know about 8,16,24,32 bit formats, but I don't know how to determine what my music that I have on my machine is recorded in or is being played in. It would be safe to say that certain explanations would have to simplified and possibly even drawn out in Laimen's terms for me.

I personally start to hear distortion when I try any bitrate lower than 128kbps when I play the music at mid to high volumes. For simplicities sake, is that all I shoould be concerned with for my needs?
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post #7 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destrto View Post

please refrain from remarks like "I'm confused". This is a place to receive help, not belittlement......Moving on..

I personally start to hear distortion when I try any bitrate lower than 128kbps when I play the music at mid to high volumes. For simplicities sake, is that all I shoould be concerned with for my needs?

I'm sorry if I offended with "confused" remark. No offense was intended.
If you have a look at the ratio of my posts to my Rep you'll see that I'm one of the most helpful guys around here.

As for bitrate, if you're happy with 128 then be happy.
But be aware that what makes you happy today may not satisfy you in the future.
The interwebs are full of people bemoaning the fact that they have to re-rip their music collection because they bought better equipment.

It costs no more to rip at higher bitrates, other than the added cost of the space it takes to store the files. Thumb drives, SD cards and hard drives are incredibly cheep now and getting cheaper everyday. I just bought two 1TB drives for media storage...less that $90 for both, delivered! 10,000 songs at 24 bit and lossless is only about 150gigs.
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post #8 of 19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska View Post

I'm sorry if I offended with "confused" remark. No offense was intended.
If you have a look at the ratio of my posts to my Rep you'll see that I'm one of the most helpful guys around here.

As for bitrate, if you're happy with 128 then be happy.
But be aware that what makes you happy today may not satisfy you in the future.
The interwebs are full of people bemoaning the fact that they have to re-rip their music collection because they bought better equipment.

It costs no more to rip at higher bitrates, other than the added cost of the space it takes to store the files. Thumb drives, SD cards and hard drives are incredibly cheep now and getting cheaper everyday. I just bought two 1TB drives for media storage...less that $90 for both, delivered! 10,000 songs at 24 bit and lossless is only about 150gigs.

I understand the intentions, I've just personally made it a point to stop myself from ever creatingbthat mentality of "oh you don't get it? You must be stupid not to!?" No harm though.

And I understand what you mean. It's more of a personal taste than anything else. Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated. Helps me to better understand that there isn't just a set rule for this type of thing.

I don't have any high end equipment, nor do I plan to. There are more important things to pay attention to than making sure I can hear that tiny cowbell in the background of Phil Collins' music. Haha.


One quick question, is there a way to convert, say 16 bit audio format up to 24 bit? Or is it the job of the receiver to do that?
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post #9 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destrto View Post

I understand the intentions, I've just personally made it a point to stop myself from ever creating that mentality of "oh you don't get it? You must be stupid not to!?" No harm though.

LOL..Personally, I'm very often confused, usually the most confused right before I figure out an answer to a problem I'm having. I don't think you're stupid, or I wouldn't have answered your post. I don't answer posts from people whom wouldn't understand the answer to the question they're asking.

One quick question, is there a way to convert, say 16 bit audio format up to 24 bit? Or is it the job of the receiver to do that?

First off. I'm one of those people that wants to hear the sound of the drum stick hitting the drum skin (as well as the sound the drum makes). Cowbells? Sure. love em! $1,000 speaker cables? bring em on! So, you and I are coming from different places (NEITHER IS BETTER OR WORSE, JUST DIFFERENT.) Temper my responses with that knowledge.

There's no reason to convert 16 bit audio to 24 bit. There's no change in SQ. The conversion doesn't "add" anything to the sound. You just get a larger file to store.
The high end computer audio heard long ago abandoned up sampling devices. They just add another layer of manipulation that adds the possibility (nay, likelihood) of sound degradation.

If you want 24 bit audio, then its best to convert the analogue to 24 bit digital in the first place.

Hope that helps.....
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post #10 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska View Post

First off. I'm one of those people that wants to hear the sound of the drum stick hitting the drum skin (as well as the sound the drum makes). Cowbells? Sure. love em! $1,000 speaker cables? bring em on! So, you and I are coming from different places (NEITHER IS BETTER OR WORSE, JUST DIFFERENT.) Temper my responses with that knowledge.

There's no reason to convert 16 bit audio to 24 bit. There's no change in SQ. The conversion doesn't "add" anything to the sound. You just get a larger file to store.
The high end computer audio heard long ago abandoned up sampling devices. They just add another layer of manipulation that adds the possibility (nay, likelihood) of sound degradation.

If you want 24 bit audio, then its best to convert the analogue to 24 bit digital in the first place.

Hope that helps.....

Yes, that does help a lot. I understand we have differing requirements for our listening pleasure. And I agree, there's nothing wrong with differing tastes.

The 16 to 24 bit explanation you gave makes that an easy decision. "Don't worry about it."

Thanks for all the help. It's greatly appreciated.
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