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post #381 of 573
Why can't people just withheld judgement until they actually use next generation consoles? The benefits of both PC and console are significant, which should outweigh any form of prejudicial bias remark.

We're all intelligent people here, we love technology and gadgets. Things moving forwards is always a good thing. Especially considering consoles are now utilising PC architecture. Regardless of optimisations, a lot of games will run better by default. But we're all forgetting this is a console for the masses, and it will do its job for the masses.

I personally prefer PC, and the only reason why, is down to mobile gaming. Yes, you can grab your xbox, take it over to your friends, plug it into a rubbish spare TV they just have lying round... Or, you can invest in a Gaming Laptop, literally everything everywhere, a lot of people that bash laptops, have never even gamed on a laptop.

I currently have a dual GPU laptop in my sights, it will be better than my desktop performance wise, and it will actually be cheaper (than initial purchase), after I get it, it will change my life dramatically, I'll be able to go anywhere and play my games, watch my films, create music, there is nothing more satisfying than that for me.

I play and mod a lot of games these days, which provide me way more hours of gameplay than a console ever would, but that is not to say consoles don't have their place, they obviously do, ease of use being one of them. Picking up a controller and just starting a game is easy. With a PC, there's a lot more to think about, I agree, but at the end of the day, it boils down to personal preference.

I also enjoy making music, coming up with new piano and guitar riffs or, a chorus for a song, or whatever, I can now do that ON THE MOVE. I don't think people realise exactly how amazing that is, with the full speed of a desktop. Sitting on your lap...

Personally, I don't understand why laptop gaming isn't more popular, when friends get together, they'd have their own screen... or be able to plug into another monitor!

I think the market is totally backwards right now.
    
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post #382 of 573
I use to be a console gamer, got my first pc about 18 months ago, so i haven't been aware of what new consoles are like when they are first released in comparison to the pc market. But in the past haven't consoles at least been like a high end pc or better at least when they are first launched? These new ones can't hold a candle to the true gaming pc's of today, the future looks dire.
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post #383 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboner1 View Post

I use to be a console gamer, got my first pc about 18 months ago, so i haven't been aware of what new consoles are like when they are first released in comparison to the pc market. But in the past haven't consoles at least been like a high end pc or better at least when they are first launched? These new ones can't hold a candle to the true gaming pc's of today, the future looks dire.

More or less. When the Xbox 360 came out it was very high end. PS3 would have been even more impressive if it had not been delayed a year. When the PS3 finally did come out PC hardware had already done some significant strides of its own courtesy of the C2D's and 8000 series geforce cards.

The resulting jump in minimum specs cause by the new consoles forced a lot of PC gamer's to do GPU upgrades. 7800 GT's and 1900 pro's where not cutting it anymore.

If the PS4 was as close to high end as the PS3 was then it would have been equipped with something like an GPU equivalent of an 7950 or more and an CPU as fast as an FX-8350. Naturally that could never practically be done form an TDP stand point but never the less the consoles could have been made more powerful if they so wanted.

How well the current spec of the PS4 holds up over the years will to a large degree depend on how long the cycle ends up being. IMO its enough if they stick to the old 5-6 year cycle but if they again intend to go for an +7 year period then they should have gone for better specs.
Edited by Bit_reaper - 8/26/13 at 10:54am
    
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post #384 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post

This is to be expected I think. Consoles are never fully utilized at launch. They take a while to get ramped up. Look at release games on the PS3 and near end of life games of the PS2...the PS2 games will actually be fairly close graphically speaking. No PC with similar specs can come close to the output of the current consoles. In fact such a machine would barely boot Windows

...though these newer consoles have a lot of power(comparatively to current consoles)...I wasn't really expecting this to happen this time around. I wonder if my suspicion that the bloated firmware is approaching full OS status with inefficient APIs and system overhead and such. It could be that they are playing it safe with BF4 too...might end up patching it up to 1080p if the console can handle it.

Heh...though I don't care...I will take a 1440x900 resolution if they bring back commanders and squad voice chat.

With the weak hardware its running not a chance in hell the next generation console's will pull off 64 player's at 60fps in 1080p. Thus is why they are tapping things down to 720p. Once you go 64 players you never go back. It's hard to imagine I used to be happy with only 24 on xbox360 a year ago. Same goes for high resolutions. There is no way I could go back to gaming on 1080p. 120HZ 1080p was nice and fluid but the pixel increase and the amount of eye candy added with 1440/1600 is dramatic. I guess if you have never experienced a top of the line gaming Pc you wouldn't care or notice. Kind of like those people living in a small town and being happy because they don't know any different. Once they get a taste of the big city life they will laugh at the thought of ever moving back. I can't even imagine how terrible 30fps at 1080p would look to me now.
 
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post #385 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfc89 View Post

With the weak hardware its running not a chance in hell the next generation console's will pull off 64 player's at 60fps in 1080p. Thus is why they are tapping things down to 720p. Once you go 64 players you never go back. It's hard to imagine I used to be happy with only 24 on xbox360 a year ago. Same goes for high resolutions. There is no way I could go back to gaming on 1080p. 120HZ 1080p was nice and fluid but the pixel increase and the amount of eye candy added with 1440/1600 is dramatic. I guess if you have never experienced a top of the line gaming Pc you wouldn't care or notice. Kind of like those people living in a small town and being happy because they don't know any different. Once they get a taste of the big city life they will laugh at the thought of ever moving back. I can't even imagine how terrible 30fps at 1080p would look to me now.

That's kind of an odd comparison. tongue.gif I live just outside of a small town and have lived in more populated areas and I much prefer the peacefulness of where I am now. There's also more freedom to do things like have bonfires and stuff like that. City life isn't for everyone.
post #386 of 573
I don't know about comparisons to high end PC's but these console APUs are fascinating SoC's nonetheless.
Just from a memory bandwidth perspective, the PS4's APU has:
- 256 bit wide interface to GDDR5 memory
- 1024 bit wide interface from GPU to memory controller (if same as llano, probably better)
- 256 bit wide interface from CPU to GPU (if same as llano, probably better)

Nothing in the SoC ever wants for bandwidth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

More or less. When the Xbox 360 came out it was very high end. PS3 would have been even more impressive if it had not been delayed a year. When the PS3 finally did come out PC hardware had already done some significant strides of its own courtesy of the C2D's and 8000 series geforce cards.

The resulting jump in minimum specs cause by the new consoles forced a lot of PC gamer's to do GPU upgrades. 7800 GT's and 1900 pro's where not cutting it anymore.

If the PS4 was as close to high end as the PS3 was then it would have been equipped with something like an GPU equivalent of an 7950 or more and an CPU as fast as an FX-8350. Naturally that could never practically be done form an TDP stand point but never the less the consoles could have been made more powerful if the so wanted.

How well the current spec of the PS4 holds up over the years will to a large degree depend on how long the cycle ends up being. IMO its enough if they stick to the old 5-6 year cycle but if the again intend to go for an +7 year period then they should have gone for better specs.
post #387 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post

Its nothing wrong with PS4 running latest generation graphics games at 720p 60fps if they can provide all eyecandy graphics.
Isn't it still 100% improvement over previous gen consoles considering most previous gen console games were limited at 720p or sub 720p with only 30fps and directx 9.0c level graphics ?
I don't know why people are expecting 1080p 60fps with a $600 console where neither a 7950 nor 670 can provide you 1080p 60fps all the time with all eyecandism on in every game.

Why do people not look into 60fps vs 30fps improvement which will be a major improvement instead they are intentionally looking into 2MP vs 1MP resolution ? Can anyone give me a configuration that will give you 1080p 60fps all time in every game with high graphics settings plus AA at only $600 ?

Killzone shadowfall, Deep Down, Watchdogs like games have already been demonstrated at 1080p on PS4, so I think the hardware is capable to run it. Only graphics might be limited when comparing to PC gaming for Full HD.
Imo with in the case of BF4, developers must have been stuck in thinking whether they should provide ultra graphics with 720p or they should increase resolution to 1080p with medium settings.

btw if you look into xb1 side where MS has already told xb1 will not be limited to let the game run at even 8MP (4K), though we all know about what will be the graphics quality on the 4k on xb1.

They are just confused with only BF4 like demanding game that, should they be using 1080p around 30fps or they should put 720p at 60fps ? as most BF3 gamers have been expecting 60fps at least in multiplayer environment (including me, however I game on 768p with my 7790)


"Eye candy" is pretty much pointless if it's not rendered at the native res though. If scaling is involved, you won't gain any benefit from higher quality textures or shadows, and particle effects won't look anywhere near as good as they should have. It is NOT a hardware limitation, it is just game devs not having their priorities right.

A $600 PC can run tons of games at 60FPS at 1080P or above, it just requires lowering graphics settings or disabling some things. For consoles, the hardware never changes, and the devs have complete knowledge of what they're designing the game for. They shouldn't ever trade off resolution for anything. Any game can be optimized better for a console than it will ever be for a PC, because every PC is different. A console could easily run a game at 120FPS if the developers wanted it to. That would just mean they'd have to lower poly counts or other things.
Quote:
Isn't it still 100% improvement over previous gen

As far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no noticeable improvement over the last generation until they get games running at 1920x1080.
It's either choose the resolution everyone has, or sell branded "Xbox TVs" which run at the resolution they have chosen and enforced for all games to run at.
Low resolution doesn't automatically equal bad, the problem is that hardly anyone has a true 720p TV or monitor. They're very rare. In order to get the best quality from your screen you need to run stuff at the native resolution.

1280x720 looks good. I've played a lot of games at 1280x720 on my old 1280x1024 monitor, and they looked great. With black bars on the top and bottom, the resolution matched the screen perfectly.

With my new monitor, I can say I honestly don't notice that much of an improvement while gaming. It's certainly not what you'd call 2.25x better visually, but when looking at distant objects or things like players, they're a bit clearer. What might have otherwise been an 8x8 section of somebody's face in the distance slightly pixelated is now 18x18 and more detailed. Ground textures are also less blurry when viewed from a distance, too. Aside from that, UIs can be much more cleaner looking or if they don't scale with resolution, you'll have more usable screen space.

A game like WoW is a pretty good example.
At 1280x720, you don't have much room for a lot of UI elements to be shown if you want the fine details to be readable, like your chat box. At a 720p resolution I didn't have many lines of easily readable chat with my UI. I didn't have it super tall. In the same amount of space, having it go like 1/5 up from my screen and keeping the same font, I was able to have more lines of chat at the same font size. A game like WoW is one that benefits quite a bit from higher resolutions.

For a game like Chivalry: Midieval Warfare there really isn't a need for 1080p resolution. it'd be fine on a huge 720p display, because there aren't many little details or things to read on screen that are important. Maybe if you're playing as an archer and want to see things in the distance, but most people like to play as Melee and get up close in that game for it not to matter much.


Just because a game can look nice at 720p on a 720p screen doesn't give them a good reason to make it render at that resolution. The game will look bad if it is not played on a true 720p screen, and those are very uncommon. Seeing how most PC gamers don't even run on Max settings, their PC doesn't give them much better graphics than a Console could, if only it rendered at the resolution of their screen. One of the things most people notice when switching from console gaming to PC gaming is how clear everything is because even from the couch, blurry text is crappy.

Compare these two.
http://i.imgur.com/oOvfJ7F.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/w4978If.jpg
They both look pretty good (Imgur .jpeged them, but they're still alright)

Here is the 720p one upscaled to 1080.
http://i.imgur.com/3d9LkEj.jpg

There are things that have actually been changed in the upscaled version. Things that were previously sharp now blend next to nearby pixels, and sitting from your couch you'll still be able to see it. If the screen were 720p showing a 720p image, moving back from the TV would still allow you to see sharp edges of things, but 720p on a 1080p screen looks worse. Then again there are people who hook up their consoles to their Monitors and sit up close, with that setup it's VERY obvious how bad the image becomes.

If your vision sucks and you can't see the difference, don't assume everyone else has bad vision too or that the issue isn't important. The problem is real, it is easily seen by most, and there is a simple way to solve it. If your vision is fine and you don't think it is a problem, you obviously don't care about graphics and likely wouldn't care if the game ran at 360p.

If either of the consoles enforced a resolution standard of 1280x720, I'd go looking for and buy a 1280x720 res television and the console as soon as I had the time and money and probably plan to buy a few console games. Unfortunately, they let retarded devs make games with all kinds of random resolutions so buying a TV specifically for the console is not an option.
I wouldn't play FPS games on it, but I'd have no issue going with a console for Racing, Platformer, or Melee Combat games because I enjoy controllers with those on my PC.
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post #388 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow11377 View Post


As far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no noticeable improvement over the last generation until they get games running at 1920x1080.

Would Crysis 3 at 720p @ 60fps not be an upgrade against vanilla Crysis 1 at 720p @ 30fps (with dips)?

Quote:
It's either choose the resolution everyone has, or sell branded "Xbox TVs" which run at the resolution they have chosen and enforced for all games to run at.

A. Not sure if 1080p is quite "everyone" yet, over the next few years though, sure....
B. People with great 720p TVs will have a much better image than people with crappy $500 1080p TVs. Resolution has it's place, but it's not the utmost important factor.
C. Resolution is strictly up to the developers. If they want to sacrifice eye candy for resolution, that's their decision, and probably something they've tested 100+ times.
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post #389 of 573
I don't think you can judge these systems by the first set of games that are coming out. The xbox one has 15 additional application accelerators (not including GPU and audio processor) probably including some powerful vector processors. Developers clearly have some learning to do in order to get the full power out of these systems.
post #390 of 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by prescotter View Post

@perkeleprkl

I dont think CPU load stays the same if you change the resolution,

So you are saying if you have 50% GPU Load in Battlefield 3 on 720p,

and you change to 1080p the CPU Load stays 50%?

Its not that the Graphic ''part' of the game only relies on the GPU,
If this was true, then with 100% GPU Usage, why does a 3770k beats a 3470 in http://static.techspot.com/articles-info/608/bench/CPU_01.png


The CPU "renders" the game at an infinite resolution.
What comes out of the CPU isn't what you see, it is data that can be used by the GPU to then do it's own thing.

The CPU will tell the GPU the coordinates of every polygon's vertex, location of lighting elements, where characters are and plenty of other things each frame. From that data, the GPU can render the scene.

For example, the CPU would tell the GPU where the floor is, what texture it should use, and from that information it could turn it into an image. The higher the resolution image it renders, the more it has to work. Because instead of filling up only 57,600 pixels, for a higher res version it has to fill up 230,400 pixels according to the data.

For gaming, the CPU load goes up slightly as resolution does(mostly for UI processing) but the GPU is where the majority of the work is done.
Take a look at these pictures.



The CPU tells the gpu the angle of the floor in relation to the view area, and what color the cubes are, the direction the shadows should be cast in, and the texture of the floor. The image pretty much stays the same as far as your eyes or a processor are concerned, but the higher res has more pixels.
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