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Does 120hz require a stable 120fps?

post #1 of 9
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Do you have to hold a solid 120fps+ to see the benefits on a 120hz display with lighboost? I've been thinking about getting an ASUS VG248QE and doing the lighboost hack, but I'm not sure if my hardware is going to hold back the display. I currently have a single 560ti and have trouble holding 120fps in certain games unless I drop the resolution to something really low. Is it worth getting this display with my hardware or should I just stick with a 60hz display? Thanks
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post #2 of 9
Yah you are going to have a little bit of trouble holding frames in certain games. You will notice a difference even if you are at 80 FPS, obviously you want a steady 120/144 fps to take full advantage of the 120/144hz monitors.

You don't "need" 120/144 FPS though. just like a 60hz monitor you don't need 60 fps, but if you want it to look the best than that's what you want to shoot for.

I would upgrade the GPU and wait on a monitor unless you have a really bad one right now.
Edited by Gaupz - 9/8/13 at 2:05pm
post #3 of 9
Yes to a certain extent it is needed because not pushing enough FPS would cause stutter at some point when it drops to low. Trying to push at least 100+ FPS is ideal for 120 Hz monitors of any resolution.

Either a 1080p 120 Hz monitor or a 1440p monitor that is over clocked to 120 Hz refresh rate which is even more demanding on your GPU than the prior. Game video settings can be lowered to help maintain higher FPS and may be necessary depending on the GPU set up.

Source - 120hz 1080p vs. 60hz 1440p monitor - Page 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizonian View Post

On my TN when gaming at 120 Hz refresh one needs a GPU that can push at least 100+ FPS to see the FULL benefits of fluidity of motion. This is no different on a 1440 panel which is just as demanding at 60 Hz let alone at higher refresh rates of 120 Hz or any other higher refresh rate than 60 Hz.

If your GPU isn't pushing the amount of FPS per Hz then no amount of refresh rate over clock is going to improve motion blur if your GPU can only push 60 FPS.

So the theory benefits gaming is GPU dependent to improve motion blur. Something that's over looked by 1440p owners who've never used a 120 Hz TN panel it seems. Consider it takes an SLI / Crossfire rig for 1440p to maintain 120 FPS and even then some amazing dips that would blur the screen just as bad as a 60 Hz refresh during those lows. Even worse at 1440p greater input lag that no GPU can overcome where a TN panel has less of.

Source - 120hz 1080p vs. 60hz 1440p monitor - Page 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrejhon View Post

This is true, the point of minimum motion blur occurs when frame rates match refresh rate.

Stutters, judders, repeat refreshes, and other effects, contribute to excessive sample-and-hold effects (aka extra motion blur) -- a dis-synchronization with continuous eye tracking. As human eyes track moving objects across a display, the motion on the screen should be consistent with where the human eyes are. Thus, the best consistency occurs when fps = Hz.



Repeat refreshes & high-frequency stutters "blends" into extra motion blur.
The closer the frame rate matches the refresh rate, the less motion blur there is.
     
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post #4 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by gene-z View Post

Do you have to hold a solid 120fps+ to see the benefits on a 120hz display with lighboost? I've been thinking about getting an ASUS VG248QE and doing the lighboost hack, but I'm not sure if my hardware is going to hold back the display. I currently have a single 560ti and have trouble holding 120fps in certain games unless I drop the resolution to something really low. Is it worth getting this display with my hardware or should I just stick with a 60hz display? Thanks
For *noticeable* benefit, NO

For *maximized* benefit, YES

Arizonian quoted the diagram I created. Stutters are a mismatch between framerate and refreshrate, and it can be noticeable at high refreshrates, even at above 60fps. Microstutters are also more noticeable during when there is less motion blur (e.g. short persistence displays like CRT and LightBoost).
Edited by mdrejhon - 9/8/13 at 7:52pm
post #5 of 9
Only if you insist on using vsync in games that do not have good triple buffering implementations will you need to push a constant 120+ fps.

Otherwise, the extra Hz can benefit at any frame rate.
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post #6 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arizonian View Post

Yes to a certain extent it is needed because not pushing enough FPS would cause stutter at some point when it drops to low. Trying to push at least 100+ FPS is ideal for 120 Hz monitors of any resolution.

Either a 1080p 120 Hz monitor or a 1440p monitor that is over clocked to 120 Hz refresh rate which is even more demanding on your GPU than the prior. Game video settings can be lowered to help maintain higher FPS and may be necessary depending on the GPU set up.

Source - 120hz 1080p vs. 60hz 1440p monitor - Page 4
Source - 120hz 1080p vs. 60hz 1440p monitor - Page 4
Soo... according to that quote, 60fps on a 60hz monitor will be smoother then 94fps on 120hz monitor?
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post #7 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by th3illusiveman View Post

Soo... according to that quote, 60fps on a 60hz monitor will be smoother then 94fps on 120hz monitor?

No didn't say that entirely. Trying to say that FPS should equal Hz for full benefits with fluidity to be seen at 120 Hz without stutter regardless of resolution.

If your maintaining 60 FPS on a 60 Hz monitor but not enough FPS on the 120 Hz monitor, you will have a better experience on the 60 Hz monitor because you won't see any of the 120 Hz fluidity with stutter. Easily solved with either enough GPU or lowered in game video settings to maintain FPS = Hz scenario.

What that actual point is would be hard to say as I don't think anyone has ever done any testing with results.

Edit: spelling correction.
     
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post #8 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Only if you insist on using vsync in games that do not have good triple buffering implementations will you need to push a constant 120+ fps.
Good to ponder the angles --
The "need to" question is different from "is there a benefit?" and is also different from "What's needed to max-out a 120Hz monitor?"
Quote:
Otherwise, the extra Hz can benefit at any frame rate.
You do get less input lag at any framerates. However, from a "achieving the maximum possible image fluidity" perspective (zero visible microstutters, zero tearing, etc)

To my eyes, VSYNC ON (both double and good/bad triple buffer versions), Adaptive VSYNC *and* VSYNC OFF are generally not maximized at less than triple-digit framerates.

Also, having framerates far in excess of Hz is also a benefit for VSYNC-OFF. You've got fresher frames (less input lag) and you've got smaller-offset tearlines. During 300fps, having 300 tiny-offset tearlines can be harder to see than just 100 large-offset tearlines. Eventually at "insane" framerates, offsets are so tiny (a few pixels, or even just a pixel), that VSYNC OFF looks as fluid as good as framerate-locked VSYNC ON, but it requires several hundreds of frames per second for that to happen. A great example is running very old Source engine game with VSYNC OFF, on a Geforce 780 or Titan -- that runs at several hundreds of frames per second. Or even running an old copy of QuakeWorld, etc. Some people like me, are sensitive to tearing even at triple-digit framerates (200fps, 300fps) and tearing just gradually fades in intensity the higher the framerate you go (due to the shrinking offset of tearlines). And also avoiding harmonics between framerate and Hz, so you want to avoid setting fps_max values to those harmonics. (e.g. two annoyingly stationary tearlines can occur during 240fps@120Hz).

For theoretical maximized human-visible benefits, if you're targetting the top (the cieling of what's human-benefittable)

For maxing-out human detectable motion fluidity (eliminate stutters, eliminate tearing)
-- For VSYNC ON, framerate=Hz
-- For VSYNC OFF, framerates _massively_ exceeding Hz

For minimum input lag.
-- For VSYNC ON (double buffering), framerate=Hz
-- For VSYNC OFF (or proper non-chained triple-buffered VSYNC ON), framerates _massively_ exceeding Hz

But that's not "required".
You can still benefit from a 120Hz monitor at any framerates.
Just is what's needed to "max-out" fluidity on a monitor, which isn't something one "needs" to do.
Edited by mdrejhon - 9/9/13 at 5:48pm
post #9 of 9
Not really either way it's a better experience thumb.gif
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