Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Multiple] Verizon Vs FCC -- Internet neutrality.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[Multiple] Verizon Vs FCC -- Internet neutrality. - Page 9

post #81 of 88
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

If it was just usage restriction.... the why would an ISP care again? Then they would just be dumb pipes like electricity, water, or gas.

But we already know you cannot remove the company/ownership aspect. If I download 10GB of data from a company like Netflix a month, why should I pay more than if I download 10GB from a personal server? It's just data right?

If the ISPs are concern about their infrastructure, why don't they take up the offer of nearly free cache servers? (or install more of their own?) These would absolutely reduce the load on their networks and inter-networks.

ISP's care because packets often take up more room than bandwidth...

The closest example I can think of would be a highway.

Email traffic are your Prius's and Camrys, a few Smart-Cars in there, everything is moving along nicely.

Say you have a traffic jam -- Things still go rather smoothly on the 1 lane because these are consumer cars, small autos...Everyone gets by reasonably fast.

Media traffic is the Wide Load coming down. Is it moving just as fast? A little slower BUT, it's the space it's using that's an issue, not the speed for which it's moving.

Say you have a traffic jam -- Nothing is going smoothly because every single wide load is 1.5 lanes wide and they have to crawl through that 1 lane...Everyone get by extremely slowly.

Ask an admin to break down his internal network by usage and stream the packets...You'll instantly find that media-based content takes up significantly more room on the pipe even though it runs at the same speed.

The issue for ISPS comes in at if everyone watches Netflix, at the same time, you're congesting the pipe and eventually, the average speed will dwindle where-as if everyone was checking their email, even at 100% load, this wouldn't be an issue.

That's why, when I see this issue, I see an issue of usage that's compacted by one of population. When you TLDR this and look at the root cause, our infrastructure is so crappy, it's being used as the bargaining chip to move forward...However, we're moving forward, badly.

What we SHOULD be doing is rebuilding those pipelines so that this isn't an issue...Much like how we SHOULD be rebuilding I-95 but, instead, bicker over it's necessity and watch it wither away into ruin.
post #82 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

ISP's care because packets often take up more room than bandwidth...

The closest example I can think of would be a highway.

Email traffic are your Prius's and Camrys, a few Smart-Cars in there, everything is moving along nicely.

Say you have a traffic jam -- Things still go rather smoothly on the 1 lane because these are consumer cars, small autos...Everyone gets by reasonably fast.

Media traffic is the Wide Load coming down. Is it moving just as fast? A little slower BUT, it's the space it's using that's an issue, not the speed for which it's moving.

Say you have a traffic jam -- Nothing is going smoothly because every single wide load is 1.5 lanes wide and they have to crawl through that 1 lane...Everyone get by extremely slowly.

Ask an admin to break down his internal network by usage and stream the packets...You'll instantly find that media-based content takes up significantly more room on the pipe even though it runs at the same speed.

The issue for ISPS comes in at if everyone watches Netflix, at the same time, you're congesting the pipe and eventually, the average speed will dwindle where-as if everyone was checking their email, even at 100% load, this wouldn't be an issue.

That's why, when I see this issue, I see an issue of usage that's compacted by one of population. When you TLDR this and look at the root cause, our infrastructure is so crappy, it's being used as the bargaining chip to move forward...However, we're moving forward, badly.

What we SHOULD be doing is rebuilding those pipelines so that this isn't an issue...Much like how we SHOULD be rebuilding I-95 but, instead, bicker over it's necessity and watch it wither away into ruin.

even if this is true, you're ignoring all the implications what letting isps do this would cause. if they could distinguish and show bias to certain sites, the free internet as we know it could cease to exist. not to mention, these are private entities and there is nothing stopping them for simply pocketing the profit.

we already pay far more for internet than the average european does, for lower speeds. now they say they need more money? not to mention google managed to provide far faster internet for less, and i don't see them crying about this either
post #83 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

ISP's care because packets often take up more room than bandwidth...

The closest example I can think of would be a highway.

Email traffic are your Prius's and Camrys, a few Smart-Cars in there, everything is moving along nicely.

Say you have a traffic jam -- Things still go rather smoothly on the 1 lane because these are consumer cars, small autos...Everyone gets by reasonably fast.

Media traffic is the Wide Load coming down. Is it moving just as fast? A little slower BUT, it's the space it's using that's an issue, not the speed for which it's moving.

Say you have a traffic jam -- Nothing is going smoothly because every single wide load is 1.5 lanes wide and they have to crawl through that 1 lane...Everyone get by extremely slowly.

Ask an admin to break down his internal network by usage and stream the packets...You'll instantly find that media-based content takes up significantly more room on the pipe even though it runs at the same speed.

The issue for ISPS comes in at if everyone watches Netflix, at the same time, you're congesting the pipe and eventually, the average speed will dwindle where-as if everyone was checking their email, even at 100% load, this wouldn't be an issue.

That's why, when I see this issue, I see an issue of usage that's compacted by one of population. When you TLDR this and look at the root cause, our infrastructure is so crappy, it's being used as the bargaining chip to move forward...However, we're moving forward, badly.

What we SHOULD be doing is rebuilding those pipelines so that this isn't an issue...Much like how we SHOULD be rebuilding I-95 but, instead, bicker over it's necessity and watch it wither away into ruin.

However, your argument breaks down since ISP want to apply content-based billing to non-large/intensive packet applications like Gmail or Facebook. These applications do NOT stress their network.

Furthermore, they want to limit VOIP like Skype as well.... hmmmm, who else has a VOIP business? All majors ISPs. wink.gif


This will be the result of content-based billing:


Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
post #84 of 88
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectblade View Post

even if this is true, you're ignoring all the implications what letting isps do this would cause. if they could distinguish and show bias to certain sites, the free internet as we know it could cease to exist. not to mention, these are private entities and there is nothing stopping them for simply pocketing the profit.

we already pay far more for internet than the average european does, for lower speeds. now they say they need more money? not to mention google managed to provide far faster internet for less, and i don't see them crying about this either

Hey man, I'm NOT in support of this, I'm just giving you the perspective of an Administrator.

When I look at this, I don't see content-based billing, I see packet-based billing.

Your packets ARE based on what you do on-line so, the easiest way to attack this for an ISP, is at the CONSUMER level. Thus, hitting content.

They want to charge you MORE for the wide loads because our infrastructure is a pile of crap.

This actually has more to do with the AT&T -> Comcast -> Charter -> AT&T -> COX -> AT&T example, I gave earlier. If Comcast has a crap line that can't handle the Netflix bandwidth, that's your lowest common denominator right there so, the rest of the line has to work harder to retain that speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

However, your argument breaks down since ISP want to apply content-based billing to non-large/intensive packet applications like Gmail or Facebook. These applications do NOT stress their network.

Furthermore, they want to limit VOIP like Skype as well.... hmmmm, who else has a VOIP business? All majors ISPs. wink.gif


This will be the result of content-based billing:



I'm not disagreeing but, Skype is a hog too...Due to the video usage...Voip is kind of meh, that would be your red herring in that package...

I don't think they're attacking content for content, alone though -- I think they're trying to hit usage and throwing in the extras because it's the icing on the cake.

This is just my opinion, though. thumb.gif
post #85 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

I'm not disagreeing but, Skype is a hog too...Due to the video usage...Voip is kind of meh, that would be your red herring in that package...

I don't think they're attacking content for content, alone though -- I think they're trying to hit usage and throwing in the extras because it's the icing on the cake.

This is just my opinion, though. thumb.gif

Serving packets is getting cheaper and cheaper. There are techniques that can be used to mitigate moving so much data around. How much dark fiber is left out there? Have the major ISPs demonstrated that their capacity?

Capacity shortages is the red herring.

We are assuming they are attacking content for content.... they have vested interest in doing so in fact.
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
Once again...
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 920 [4.28GHz, HT] Asus P6T + Broadcom NetXtreme II VisionTek HD5850 [900/1200] + Galaxy GT240 2x4GB G.Skill Ripjaw X [1632 MHz] 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-M 160GB + 3xRAID0 500GB 7200.12 Window 7 Pro 64 Acer H243H + Samsung 226BW XARMOR-U9BL  
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Antec Truepower New 750W Li Lian PC-V2100 [10x120mm fans] Logitech G9 X-Trac Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
post #86 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by t00sl0w View Post

the problem here is netflix does pay to use these networks, they dont have a magic upload circuit, they have to pay to be connected to the internet just as much as the next person.
and, companies like netflix, that know they are a bugbear on various networks offer free caching systems that the ISPs refuse to use...so again, it falls on the ISP greed/ignorance.
and judging by thier profit margins, you can pretty much ignore whatever menial amount of money it would cost them to power the cache servers.

Netflix has numerous remote content servers in large cities. One of the guys I work with used to work for a company that made said servers that were shipped all over the US. If comcast/verizon/time warner, etc doesn't have to get every bit of a movie from netflix central, and can keep their primary lines less congested they roll with it. I work for a small university and google is tied into a private routed network between the colleges in my state. That network doesn't route to the general internet, but it does route to google.
Teh Gam3r
(18 items)
 
Home server
(13 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4770 Gigabyte GA-Z87X-D3H Z87 RT Gigabyte GTX 1070 G1 G Skill Cheapo DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
OCZ Solid 3 Seagate Crucial SSD LG Sata DVD-RW 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Noctua NH-U9B Windows 10 Pro Cheap 2560x1440 knock off Samsung T240HD  
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Logitech G910 Corsair TX750 Cooler Master HAF 932 Logitech G502 
Mouse PadAudio
Steel Series QcK+ SteelSeries Siberia Elite Prism 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom X4 9500 Asus M3N78 Pro On board Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Western Digital Velociraptor Samsung Sata Hitatchi Samsung 
Optical DriveCoolingOSPower
Polaroid USB DVD ROM Thermaltake TR2-R1 CentOS6 x86_64 Ultra 600W 
Case
Ultra X-Blaster 
  hide details  
Reply
Teh Gam3r
(18 items)
 
Home server
(13 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4770 Gigabyte GA-Z87X-D3H Z87 RT Gigabyte GTX 1070 G1 G Skill Cheapo DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
OCZ Solid 3 Seagate Crucial SSD LG Sata DVD-RW 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Noctua NH-U9B Windows 10 Pro Cheap 2560x1440 knock off Samsung T240HD  
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Logitech G910 Corsair TX750 Cooler Master HAF 932 Logitech G502 
Mouse PadAudio
Steel Series QcK+ SteelSeries Siberia Elite Prism 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom X4 9500 Asus M3N78 Pro On board Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Western Digital Velociraptor Samsung Sata Hitatchi Samsung 
Optical DriveCoolingOSPower
Polaroid USB DVD ROM Thermaltake TR2-R1 CentOS6 x86_64 Ultra 600W 
Case
Ultra X-Blaster 
  hide details  
Reply
post #87 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masked View Post

Hey man, I'm NOT in support of this, I'm just giving you the perspective of an Administrator.

They want to charge you MORE for the wide loads because our infrastructure is a pile of crap.

Then upgrade the equipment instead of relying on the outdated "oversell and hope for under utilization" model? This would literally be one of the worst things ever to happen to the internet. I'm seriously considering leaving my grandfathered unlimited data Verizon plan because of this news.

Duckie for president.
post #88 of 88
Every time governments give ISP's money to upgrade their infrastructure their bonusses, the payouts to their shareholders and their yachts get upgraded.
The girlfriend.
(14 items)
 
The Mistress
(13 items)
 
Media Server
(11 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX8320 @ 4.5 Crosshair V (Third One) 290 Tri-X OC 16GB HyperX 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Sandisk SSD Plus 240GB Toshiba 3TB Hitachi 2TB Swiftech H220-X 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 8.1/Mint Viewsonic VX2457-mhd Logitech K120 Super Flower Golden Green 650W 
CaseMouse
Enthoo Pro G400 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A8-6410 Lenovo Lancer 4B2 K16.3 R5 128 Shaders/M230 Hynix 8GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
Samsung 840 120 GB SSD Seagate Momentus 1TB 5400rmp Win 8.1 CMN1487 TN LED 14" 1366*768 
KeyboardPowerMouseMouse Pad
Lenovo AccuType 2900mAh/41Wh Elan Trackpad/Logitech M90 Super Flower 
Audio
AMD Avalon(Connexant) 
  hide details  
Reply
The girlfriend.
(14 items)
 
The Mistress
(13 items)
 
Media Server
(11 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX8320 @ 4.5 Crosshair V (Third One) 290 Tri-X OC 16GB HyperX 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Sandisk SSD Plus 240GB Toshiba 3TB Hitachi 2TB Swiftech H220-X 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 8.1/Mint Viewsonic VX2457-mhd Logitech K120 Super Flower Golden Green 650W 
CaseMouse
Enthoo Pro G400 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A8-6410 Lenovo Lancer 4B2 K16.3 R5 128 Shaders/M230 Hynix 8GB DDR3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
Samsung 840 120 GB SSD Seagate Momentus 1TB 5400rmp Win 8.1 CMN1487 TN LED 14" 1366*768 
KeyboardPowerMouseMouse Pad
Lenovo AccuType 2900mAh/41Wh Elan Trackpad/Logitech M90 Super Flower 
Audio
AMD Avalon(Connexant) 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Technology and Science News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Multiple] Verizon Vs FCC -- Internet neutrality.