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post #51 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Any modern MMO should be looking to leverage multi-GPU systems. You can't crank Scaling and Visible Distances with a single card. You also can't push multi monitor setups with a single GPU (seen it first hand with a friend trying to push 3x1080p on dual 7990's forced to run as a single 7970 due to lack of Xfire support).

I don't really care for AMD cards, but even I can appreciate HSA's potential to eliminate the CPU bottleneck when it comes to recalculating player positions in MMO's, at which point Xfire support could exponentially increase framerates in all environments (even in major towns or large scale combat).

Most of this is completely untrue.
MMORPGs are a set of games that shouldn't push the GPU race because they'll screw themselves doing so because of the availability and comparability levels they need to achieve.
MMORPGs are one of the lowest graphics intense games genre, above indie games, and it's for a reason.

An optimized modern MMORPG can easily run at 3x1080P monitors, the problem though is the CPU and sometimes the VRAM.
MMORPGs are limited by core frequency. Almost every MMORPG utlizes a lot of single line operations, and only high frequency cores are what improve the games operation.
MMORPGs use a lot of draw call render functions and a ton of basic mathematics number crunching well beyond what your average triple A game does. And these are all single threaded operations.

The problem isn't GPUs when it comes to MMOs. Its CPUs. the architecture and core frequency has never been optimal for MMORPGs. It's theorized that World of Warcraft could run at 60FPS solid on ultra on an HD7870 ONLY if it had a 8.1ghz dual core Ivybridge CPU.
Which isn't technically possible to run under daily workload.
An mmorpg can be designed to optimize a GPU extremely well. With just a few optimization patches, wildstar went from 35~40FPS average to 60~80FPS average on my same card and CPU.

The big thing MMORPGs need is to find a way to make LUA and draw call, UI, and object interaction to be multicore. Which may never happen because of the nature of the operations.

I could run Guild Wars 2 and WildStar and WoW at 1080P Eyefinity on my card and have acceptable frame rates if I could overclock my CPU to 5ghz+


Changing gears, Exiles had a Dance Party for the end of CBT
Edited by FranBunnyFFXII - 3/17/14 at 7:52pm
post #52 of 300
Responses in bold smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranBunnyFFXII View Post

Most of this is completely untrue.
MMORPGs are a set of games that shouldn't push the GPU race because they'll screw themselves doing so because of the availability and comparability levels they need to achieve.
MMORPGs are one of the lowest graphics intense games genre, above indie games, and it's for a reason.

99% of all modern games are available to gamers regardless of how high-end their system is. 1080p gaming has never been more accessible these days. Even BF4 can be pushed on low with a APU. This is not exclusive to the MMO genre.
What that said, there's no way any single GPU is pushing high frame rates atm in MMO's when the settings are cranked to high. Wildstar I dip into 40's. Swtor I dip into 30's.


An optimized modern MMORPG can easily run at 3x1080P monitors, the problem though is the CPU and sometimes the VRAM.

Prove it, because I've seen first hand the opposite.

MMORPGs are limited by core frequency. Almost every MMORPG utlizes a lot of single line operations, and only high frequency cores are what improve the games operation.

MMO's are the same as RTS's in nature; reliant on multiple threads to handle the VAST number of positional recalculations and combat recalculations happening every second during crowded interaction. The fact that MMO's are only being coded for single threading is not a "optimal design choice", it's a lazy choice which hinders performance potential

MMORPGs use a lot of draw call render functions and a ton of basic mathematics number crunching well beyond what your average triple A game does. And these are all single threaded operations.

The fact that draw calls are being made on the same threads that recalculations are supposed to be occuring is quite literally the reason why MMO's need to be moving towards mutli-thread optimisation hehe

The problem isn't GPUs when it comes to MMOs. Its CPUs. the architecture and core frequency has never been optimal for MMORPGs. It's theorized that World of Warcraft could run at 60FPS solid on ultra on an HD7870 ONLY if it had a 8.1ghz dual core Ivybridge CPU.
Which isn't technically possible to run under daily workload.

As above

An mmorpg can be designed to optimize a GPU extremely well. With just a few optimization patches, wildstar went from 35~40FPS average to 60~80FPS average on my same card and CPU.

Scaling and Viewable Distance is where GPU horsepower is still needed, unless wildstar's optimisation can go far enough to make single GPU's more than sufficient (which going by past MMO examples, is unlikely to occur)

The big thing MMORPGs need is to find a way to make LUA and draw call, UI, and object interaction to be multicore. Which may never happen because of the nature of the operations.

HSA, OpenCL(?) and potentially DX12 lol

I could run Guild Wars 2 and WildStar and WoW at 1080P Eyefinity on my card and have acceptable frame rates if I could overclock my CPU to 5ghz+

again, not at max settings, because GPU power isn't there.

Changing gears, Exiles had a Dance Party for the end of CBT


Cool!

At the end of the day, when you can shift your graphics preset from Low, to Meidum, to High, then back to low again without the framerate changing, you can claim that the CPU frequency is the one and only factor of minimum framerates. Unitl that happens, my claim that SLI is needed still stands.
post #53 of 300
Like I said, it's not the GPU restriction, its the CPU limitations.
SLI/Crossfire will never be a standard with MMORPGs because of the nature of the game. nor will an MMORPG push the limits of the GPU game, because they have some of the lowest graphics intensity of any video game genre(above indie).

Even some of the highest graphics quality games like TERA are still limited by their single line operations.

TERA is one of the most graphics intense MMORPGs ever created

The game is Single GPU bound, here's some multi monitor videos for you.
5x1 eyefinity


3x 5040x1050

Remember that these are SINGLE GPUs running this game, not a dual GPU set up and they are getting smooth frame rates and TERA is NOT optimized as far as it could be.
TERA is running Unreal 3.

WildStar is techincally lower graphics intensity than TERA.
WildStar's file size is 15GB, TERA's is 76GB.
TERA is the "Crysis" of the MMORPG universe.

A single Flagship card is more than enough for every standard MMORPG on the market,
an HD7970, R9 290X, GTX 780, GTX 680. Enough to run the common MMORPG at 1080p x3.
Edited by FranBunnyFFXII - 3/17/14 at 8:35pm
post #54 of 300
post #55 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post


I made a full edit.
post #56 of 300
The author of the first video hasn't commented on his frame rate or the settings he's running at, but the second video's author said he's pulling 30-40fps with graphics settings at fairly high settings. That's pretty great when you think about how many pixels he's pushing, but then again he's not pushing max character distance, max background distance, and presumably not the highest settings in the effect quality section of the graphics sub-menu (can't tell for sure since he doesn't scroll down the menu far enough)... :/

Is the Tera client free to download and free to play? If so, I'll go have a dig around in the graphics settings and see what I can come up with.
post #57 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

The author of the first video hasn't commented on his frame rate or the settings he's running at, but the second video's author said he's pulling 30-40fps with graphics settings at fairly high settings. That's pretty great when you think about how many pixels he's pushing, but then again he's not pushing max character distance, max background distance, and presumably not the highest settings in the effect quality section of the graphics sub-menu (can't tell for sure since he doesn't scroll down the menu far enough)... :/

Is the Tera client free to download and free to play? If so, I'll go have a dig around in the graphics settings and see what I can come up with.

Just some info though.
TERA has never been optimized either. It's running completely un-optimized code. AND the game is single GPU bound.
TERA has some of the highest resolution textures and model details of any MMORPG ever created.
A lot of players will tweak the Unreal3 engine files to try to get the best frame rates.

TERA is free, but its currently 76.5gigs of disc space.


You have to know, I've got almost my entire major gaming history with MMORPGs, I've been around this games before WoW.
They are quite different from your average triple A or gaming title that comes out these days. MMORPGs have never changed, they've always been this way.
The industry was built around them being like this, and I don't think it's ever going to change.
Edited by FranBunnyFFXII - 3/17/14 at 9:17pm
post #58 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranBunnyFFXII View Post

Just some info though.
TERA has never been optimized either. It's running completely un-optimized code. AND the game is single GPU bound.
TERA has some of the highest resolution textures and model details of any MMORPG ever created.
A lot of players will tweak the Unreal3 engine files to try to get the best frame rates.

TERA is free, but its currently 76.5gigs of disc space.

Hmm okay then. I might download it tonight then. Hopefully there's a fileserver hosting it that actually has a bit of bandwidth (NCsofts fileservers are a joke lol...)
post #59 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Hmm okay then. I might download it tonight then. Hopefully there's a fileserver hosting it that actually has a bit of bandwidth (NCsofts fileservers are a joke lol...)

It takes a while.
post #60 of 300
If any want a beta key, go here http://www.curse.com/login?returnUrl=%2Fbetas%2Fwildstar-beta-key-giveaway-2

Log in or register and you can get a key

They still have keys available. I just got mine.
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