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[BSN] State of 4K - Page 36  

post #351 of 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Got to ask but I have seen it stated that 4k may be hardware limited here, if so then what bandwidth is currently supported? Seems more likely a software/driver issue.

this may help:
Here's why the CrossFire Eyefinity/4K story matters
Quote:
That's interesting because, technically speaking, multi-display CrossFire setups work differently than single-monitor ones. We noted this fact way back in our six-way Eyefinity write-up: the card-to-card link over a CrossFire bridge can only transfer images up to to four megapixels in size. Thus, a CrossFire team connected to multiple displays must pass data from the secondary card to the primary card over PCI Express. The method of compositing frames for Eyefinity is simply different. That's presumably why AMD's current frame-pacing driver can't work its magic on anything beyond a single, four-megapixel monitor.

how is it different?
Quote:
For one, the new marketing frontier for high-end PC graphics is 4K displays. As you may know, current 4K monitors are essentially the same as multi-monitor setups in their operation. Since today's display ASICs can't support 4K resolutions natively, monitors like the Asus PQ321Q use tiling. One input drives the left "tile" of the monitor, and a second feeds the right tile. AMD's drivers handle the PQ321Q just like a dual-monitor Eyefinity setup. That means the compositing problems we've explored happen to CrossFire configs connected to 4K displays—not the regular microstuttering troubles, but the amped-up versions.
now if i understand it correctly the two output have to "stitch" each frame together and problem occurs when the "stitching isn't insync (no not the band).


i would "guess" looking at or testing a software correction would be the first step. but iirc the latest WHQL driver from AMD did NOT have the frame pacing tech just the latest BETA. i really believe it behooves AMD to find and implement a hardware based solution for the long term.
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post #352 of 493
Having looked at so few reviews of 4K gaming (not many reputable ones available), it is becoming apparent that we need more power. 4 Titans seem to be the only cards capable of giving anything close to respectable frame rates in any of the games tested (could possibly get away with 3 Titans). And let's face it, if you are buying 4K monitors now, who wants to tone down settings? I know this is slightly OT but it is still worth mentioning and I feel we need 20nm and uber cards now if we are to be taking any form of 4K gaming serious.

These benches from Anand give you some indication of frame rates and neither of these games are that intensive and there is far more demanding titles out there.





Another thing worth a mention is VRAM..... Is 3GB enough? Probably better leaving that question for another thread but all valid points IMO.
    
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post #353 of 493
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Ryan tells me he was working on this story behind the scenes for a while, talking to both AMD and Nvidia about problems they each had with 4K monitors. You can imagine what happened when these two fierce competitors caught wind of the CrossFire problems.

For its part, Nvidia called together several of us in the press last week, got us set up to use FCAT with 4K monitors, and pointed us toward some specific issues with their competition. One the big issues Nvidia emphasized in this context is how Radeons using dual HDMI outputs to drive a 4K display can exhibit vertical tearing right smack in the middle of the screen, where the two tiles meet, because they're not being refreshed in sync. This problem is easy to spot in operation.

GeForces don't do this. Fortunately, you can avoid this problem on Radeons simply by using a single DisplayPort cable and putting the monitor into DisplayPort MST mode. The display is still treated as two tiles, but the two DP streams use the same timing source, and this vertical tearing effect is eliminated.

I figure if you drop thousands of dollars on a 4K gaming setup, you can spring for the best cable config. So one of Nvidia's main points just doesn't resonate with me.


And you've gotta say, it's quite the aggressive move, working to highlight problems with 4K displays just days ahead of your rival's big launch event for a next-gen GPU. I had to take some time to confirm that the Eyefinity/4K issues were truly different from the known issues with CrossFire on a single monitor before deciding to post anything.

Full article
http://techreport.com/blog/25399/here-why-the-crossfire-eyefinity-4k-story-matters

So Nvidia calls everyone together apart from pcper...yeah. Not sure i buy that one little bit.
post #354 of 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtMatt View Post

So the problem is fixed (aside from frame pacing which is coming soon) by using DisplayPort. Jesus. More mud slinging crap.

The PCPer article is about problems with Eyefinity - they only mention 4K as it applies to it running a simulated form of Eyefinity. They also mention that the Asus monitor uses a Displayport cable, and they didn't say anything about vertical tearing.

Their test data is all Eyefinity, not 4K, so the Nvidia meeting doesn't seem to apply at all. Plus the quote says Ryan was working with Nvidia and AMD before the meeting, so it's not like Nvidia prompted this article.
Edited by Forceman - 9/21/13 at 12:44am
post #355 of 493
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Did the PCPer article even touch on the vertical tearing issue? Their problems were with frame pacing, which it doesn't sound like Displayport fixes. Your quote also says that Ryan was working with both AMD and Nvidia before the meeting with Nvidia, so it kind of sounds like Nvidia is using the info PCPer found to prompt other sites to investigate. Which I'm sure they also did with the original frame pacing issues.

Yes, all the problems, Interleaved frames, stepped tearing. However pcper already tested a driver that fixed frame pacing at 4k 30hz back in April. One would assume, aside from the statement AMD gave saying a fix is coming very soon that they will be able to fix 4k 60hz as well. Moving away from 4k, all the issues with Eyefinity/multi monitor (aside from frame pacing) can be fixed for now by using Displayport. That was the whole point of the article, aside from the frame pacing issue which we all know about. It was explaining these other problems.

Reading Techreports article gives a better insight into what happened in my opinion. It was nice and refreshing to see a different angle, a much more positive angle towards it. Same with Guru3d. It was a more positive spin which is nice to see. I hate mud slinging crap with little light made clear at the end of the tunnel. Then i feel like the site is not really helping much, more just piling on.
Quote:
Fortunately, you can avoid this problem on Radeons simply by using a single DisplayPort cable and putting the monitor into DisplayPort MST mode. The display is still treated as two tiles, but the two DP streams use the same timing source, and this vertical tearing effect is eliminated.

I figure if you drop thousands of dollars on a 4K gaming setup, you can spring for the best cable config. So one of Nvidia's main points just doesn't resonate with me.

Whatever way anyone tries to dress it up. The BSN article is calling a spade a spade. Nvidia is behind all this. Looking at the way three different articles were written (pcper, Techreport, Guru3d), its easy to see why BSN accuse Ryan of bias. Sorry to say it as he seems like a nice guy and i do appreciate the work he's done with AMD up to this point.

Anyway hopefully they can sort out any differences out and things can change a little bit.
Edited by LtMatt - 9/21/13 at 12:51am
post #356 of 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtMatt View Post

Yes, all the problems, Interleaved frames, stepped tearing. However pcper already tested a driver that fixed frame pacing at 4k 30hz back in April. One would assume, aside from the statement AMD gave saying a fix is coming very soon that they will be able to fix 4k 60hz as well. So all those issues can be fixed for now by using Displayport. That was the whole point of the article, aside from the frame pacing issue which we all know about. It was explaining these other problems.

Reading Techreports article gives a better insight into what happened in my opinion. It was nice and refreshing to see a different angle, a much more positive angle towards it.

You quoted me before I made my edit after re-reviewing the PCPer article. The PCPer article is about Eyefinity. They only mentioned 4K because it is running a simulated kind of Eyefinity. Their test data is all from a 1080p Eyefinity system, not 4K at all. So the 4K issue is irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure 4K 30Hz is run as a single monitor also, not as an Eyefinity setup. But I'm not positive about that.
Edited by Forceman - 9/21/13 at 12:52am
post #357 of 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by looniam View Post

this may help:
Here's why the CrossFire Eyefinity/4K story matters

I'm skeptical of this bandwidth limitation of the CFX bridge being as significant as this implies.

SLI and Crossfire connectors have similar bandwidth (about 1GB/s) and this bandwidth is dwarfed by that of the PCI-E slot. Additionally NVIDIA's SLI will work without their bridge installed at all.

Basically, AMD and NVIDIA have near identical inter-card bandwidth, so I don't think bandwidth can be the main issue for why Eyefinity frame pacing has not been released yet.
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post #358 of 493
Quote:
As for AMD, well, one can imagine the collective groan that went up in their halls when word of these problems surfaced on the eve of their big announcement. The timing isn't great for them. I received some appeals to my better nature, asking me not to write about these things yet, telling me I'd hear all about AMD's 4K plans next week. I expect AMD to commit to fixing the problems with its existing products, as well as unveiling a newer and more capable high-end GPU. I'm looking forward to it.

But I'm less sympathetic when I think about how AMD has marketed multi-GPU solutions like the Radeon HD 7990 as the best solution for 4K graphics. We're talking about very expensive products that simply don't work like they should. I figure folks should know about these issues today, not later.

My hope is that we'll be adding another chapter to this story soon, one that tells the tale of AMD correcting these problems in both current and upcoming Radeons.

So basically, they reiterate what Ryan said.
    
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post #359 of 493
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

You quoted me before I made my edit after re-reviewing the PCPer article. The PCPer article is about Eyefinity. They only mentioned 4K because it is running a simulated kind of Eyefinity. Their test data is all from a 1080p Eyefinity system, not 4K at all. So the 4K issue is irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure 4K 30Hz is run as a single monitor also, not as an Eyefinity setup. But I'm not positive about that.

Yes fair enough. Anyway i was just saying that i believe its going to get fixed, as that got fixed. That was beside the point really so we'll just leave that. tongue.gif

Techreport still confirming what BSN said. Ryan may claim that Nvidia didn't go to him and they only went to other Tech sites but i think we can all have some doubt in that. Especially when you look at the way the different articles come across. Nvidia have appeared several times on pcper on video. Its hard not to draw these conclusions in my opinion. Especially when you see piles of Nvidia boxes behind people in Podcasts. biggrin.giftongue.gif
post #360 of 493
Incase people are wondering why the article was moved, it was because it's an editorial. Editorials do not belong in the news section.

It was an oversight on my part for not picking that up earlier. As for the title, it was changed because the initial one is troll bait.
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