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240mm Rad for silent fans - Page 2

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
What nonsense.
Martin is your God and Martins Liquidlab is your bible. The ins and outs of watercooling requires a more scientific approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
The consumed wattage is monitored.
So what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
Martin himself is the first to admit that any testing outside of a million dollar lab is subject to some inaccuracy.
Inaccuracy is always involved when testing. If results are too inaccurate, or misleading, you don't publish them.

BTW; Martin could have used PT1000 elements, that would have increased precision tremendously so this is more about ignorance than cost. PT1000 are very well suited for this as you first compare both RTDs at water-in and then move one of them to water-out. A 0.2°C change will increase resistance with 0.0768 ohm. You'll also need a better than average DMM.

With a resolution of 0.0625°C the measured temperature will be 0°C or 0.0625°C or 0.125°C or 0.1875°C or 0.25°C or 0.3125°C and so on. Anything between doesn't exist. That inaccuracy are on both sides (in and out) plus the inaccuracy of the rest of the test setup.

Another example here
Water in 1=23.8125 Water out 1=24.5625
Water in 2=23.9375 Water out 2=24.5625
Water in 3=23.9375 Water out 3=24.4375
Water out 4=24.5625

Water out 1 minus Water in 1 = 0,750 °C
Water out 2 minus Water in 2 = 0,625 °C
Water out 3 minus Water in 3 = 0,500 °C

From this I can "conclude" the radiator in first calculation has 50% better performance than radiator in third calculation. Problem is it's the same radiator.

You can also see how the temperatures jumps. From 23.8125 to 23.9375 it jumps 2x0.0625°C (2x resolution). From 24.4375 to 24.5625 it's the same.
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac11 View Post

thumb.gif

Pretty much this. I doubt Martin's testing isn't accurate. In fact: when he compares products in his reviews, they all get the same type of test in the same system don't they? Maybe the temps wouldn't be representative of what your own system could do - but they are still relative compared to the products by themselves.

Anyway: I'm using 5 GT-15's in my rig at 800 RPM with 2 8~fpi density radiators and they are amazing. (see signature).

I can really, really recommend these Gentle Typhoons!
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF View Post

Martin is your God and Martins Liquidlab is your bible. The ins and outs of watercooling requires a more scientific approach.
So what?
Inaccuracy is always involved when testing. If results are too inaccurate, or misleading, you don't publish them.

BTW; Martin could have used PT1000 elements, that would have increased precision tremendously so this is more about ignorance than cost. PT1000 are very well suited for this as you first compare both RTDs at water-in and then move one of them to water-out. A 0.2°C change will increase resistance with 0.0768 ohm. You'll also need a better than average DMM.

With a resolution of 0.0625°C the measured temperature will be 0°C or 0.0625°C or 0.125°C or 0.1875°C or 0.25°C or 0.3125°C and so on. Anything between doesn't exist. That inaccuracy are on both sides (in and out) plus the inaccuracy of the rest of the test setup.

Another example here
Water in 1=23.8125 Water out 1=24.5625
Water in 2=23.9375 Water out 2=24.5625
Water in 3=23.9375 Water out 3=24.4375
Water out 4=24.5625

Water out 1 minus Water in 1 = 0,750 °C
Water out 2 minus Water in 2 = 0,625 °C
Water out 3 minus Water in 3 = 0,500 °C

From this I can "conclude" the radiator in first calculation has 50% better performance than radiator in third calculation. Problem is it's the same radiator.

You can also see how the temperatures jumps. From 23.8125 to 23.9375 it jumps 2x0.0625°C (2x resolution). From 24.4375 to 24.5625 it's the same.


Oh dear, what poor deluded 'disciples' we are.

Listing the clearly stated, already agreed upon limitations of the testing, (and limitation does not automatically mean useless) again is not an argument. What exactly are the misinformed masses taking away from these tests that is so wrong? Is a particular radiator actually going to give us twice the performance that we expect from the testing maybe? Or rather, has it better highlighted some watercooling myths and misconceptions and left the community better off? Personally I believe the latter.


Its easy to just know better than others because that is all it takes, just knowing. To actually do better and contribute something is a lot harder. Despite your belief that I (among others presumably) am a LiquidLab devote or zealot of some kind, in actuality I would love to see data that contradicted Martins testing, any data at all would be great in fact. I doubt anyone in the community would not want to see, there truly is not enough testing done by far, on most aspects of the hobby.

So by all means show the community how it is done properly. If and when that superior testing is then denied and disbelieved, in favour of LiquidLab, then you can truly label people as 'followers'. Until then it seems just a little premature to be passing judgement.

One of the themes of Martins evolution in testing method has been to try to produce more useful real world information. Its all very well to know that one rad will give you a 0.2C lower delta with a 500W load in the open air over another, but what does that mean in a closed environment like a PC case. In that respect Martins testing in all its forms has in my experience shown more real life application correlation than any other. That is not useless.

I suppose until we are blessed with the perfect testing regime implemented by yourself we will have to muddle along with useless.
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post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
One of the themes of Martins evolution in testing method has been to try to produce more useful real world information. Its all very well to know that one rad will give you a 0.2C lower delta with a 500W load in the open air over another, but what does that mean in a closed environment like a PC case. In that respect Martins testing in all its forms has in my experience shown more real life application correlation than any other. That is not useless.
This case? It doesn't resemble a case and if you read Martins comments he doesn't want it too either. "I am also considering making it much taller and enclosing the top portion with a similar 4″ outlet port to measure air out temps, but I’m hesitant to create any more bench air restriction although I suppose that wouldn’t be much different than an actual case."

Known diameter for air-in (or air-out, btw air volume/speed increase with temp) means he can measure airspeed and calculate the volume. Temp. probes for air-in and air-out means he can calculate the how much energy is transportet out of the case. That's why he have the case, not because he want to simulate a PC case.

Real life case testing of fans are fine. Real life case testing of radiator has no value since the only thing affected are the fans attached to the radiator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
I suppose until we are blessed with the perfect testing regime implemented by yourself we will have to muddle along with useless.
I guess a dartboard, 5 darts, a spreadsheet table and some nice charts would impress you.
post #15 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF View Post

This case? It doesn't resemble a case and if you read Martins comments he doesn't want it too either. "I am also considering making it much taller and enclosing the top portion with a similar 4″ outlet port to measure air out temps, but I’m hesitant to create any more bench air restriction although I suppose that wouldn’t be much different than an actual case."

Known diameter for air-in (or air-out, btw air volume/speed increase with temp) means he can measure airspeed and calculate the volume. Temp. probes for air-in and air-out means he can calculate the how much energy is transportet out of the case. That's why he have the case, not because he want to simulate a PC case.


"That not look like case, so is not like case" !!!!! .... Hmmm, sound and considered reasoning there. A well crafted and logical retort. My hat is off to you. Good job reading and repeating back the test design and concept too I guess?


Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF View Post

I guess a dartboard, 5 darts, a spreadsheet table and some nice charts would impress you.

Still waiting on that testing. ... Any testing, ....... Any testing at all.

Just imagine how impressed everyone will be then! It'll be just like when you are at the football, screaming advice at the players and just knowing deep inside that you could do better than them. Except in this case you will be able to prove it.
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post #16 of 19
This thread is getting interesting. He thinks he's right lachen.gif
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post #17 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
Just imagine how impressed everyone will be then! It'll be just like when you are at the football, screaming advice at the players and just knowing deep inside that you could do better than them.
You got it all wrong - as usual. I'm not "at the football". I'm the referee and you are the ball.
post #18 of 19
I second rx240, or most double thick rads would work.
 
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post #19 of 19
Thread Starter 
Aye, looks like performance pcs doesn't stock the rx240 anymore, ut60 it is then! thanks guys smile.gif
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