Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › 240mm Rad for silent fans
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

# 240mm Rad for silent fans - Page 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire
What nonsense.
Martin is your God and Martins Liquidlab is your bible. The ins and outs of watercooling requires a more scientific approach.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire
The consumed wattage is monitored.
So what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire
Martin himself is the first to admit that any testing outside of a million dollar lab is subject to some inaccuracy.
Inaccuracy is always involved when testing. If results are too inaccurate, or misleading, you don't publish them.

BTW; Martin could have used PT1000 elements, that would have increased precision tremendously so this is more about ignorance than cost. PT1000 are very well suited for this as you first compare both RTDs at water-in and then move one of them to water-out. A 0.2°C change will increase resistance with 0.0768 ohm. You'll also need a better than average DMM.

With a resolution of 0.0625°C the measured temperature will be 0°C or 0.0625°C or 0.125°C or 0.1875°C or 0.25°C or 0.3125°C and so on. Anything between doesn't exist. That inaccuracy are on both sides (in and out) plus the inaccuracy of the rest of the test setup.

Another example here
Water in 1=23.8125 Water out 1=24.5625
Water in 2=23.9375 Water out 2=24.5625
Water in 3=23.9375 Water out 3=24.4375
Water out 4=24.5625

Water out 1 minus Water in 1 = 0,750 °C
Water out 2 minus Water in 2 = 0,625 °C
Water out 3 minus Water in 3 = 0,500 °C

From this I can "conclude" the radiator in first calculation has 50% better performance than radiator in third calculation. Problem is it's the same radiator.

You can also see how the temperatures jumps. From 23.8125 to 23.9375 it jumps 2x0.0625°C (2x resolution). From 24.4375 to 24.5625 it's the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac11

Pretty much this. I doubt Martin's testing isn't accurate. In fact: when he compares products in his reviews, they all get the same type of test in the same system don't they? Maybe the temps wouldn't be representative of what your own system could do - but they are still relative compared to the products by themselves.

Anyway: I'm using 5 GT-15's in my rig at 800 RPM with 2 8~fpi density radiators and they are amazing. (see signature).

I can really, really recommend these Gentle Typhoons!
 Pastel Green (25 items)
 Pastel Green (25 items)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF

Martin is your God and Martins Liquidlab is your bible. The ins and outs of watercooling requires a more scientific approach.
So what?
Inaccuracy is always involved when testing. If results are too inaccurate, or misleading, you don't publish them.

BTW; Martin could have used PT1000 elements, that would have increased precision tremendously so this is more about ignorance than cost. PT1000 are very well suited for this as you first compare both RTDs at water-in and then move one of them to water-out. A 0.2°C change will increase resistance with 0.0768 ohm. You'll also need a better than average DMM.

With a resolution of 0.0625°C the measured temperature will be 0°C or 0.0625°C or 0.125°C or 0.1875°C or 0.25°C or 0.3125°C and so on. Anything between doesn't exist. That inaccuracy are on both sides (in and out) plus the inaccuracy of the rest of the test setup.

Another example here
Water in 1=23.8125 Water out 1=24.5625
Water in 2=23.9375 Water out 2=24.5625
Water in 3=23.9375 Water out 3=24.4375
Water out 4=24.5625

Water out 1 minus Water in 1 = 0,750 °C
Water out 2 minus Water in 2 = 0,625 °C
Water out 3 minus Water in 3 = 0,500 °C

From this I can "conclude" the radiator in first calculation has 50% better performance than radiator in third calculation. Problem is it's the same radiator.

You can also see how the temperatures jumps. From 23.8125 to 23.9375 it jumps 2x0.0625°C (2x resolution). From 24.4375 to 24.5625 it's the same.

Oh dear, what poor deluded 'disciples' we are.

Listing the clearly stated, already agreed upon limitations of the testing, (and limitation does not automatically mean useless) again is not an argument. What exactly are the misinformed masses taking away from these tests that is so wrong? Is a particular radiator actually going to give us twice the performance that we expect from the testing maybe? Or rather, has it better highlighted some watercooling myths and misconceptions and left the community better off? Personally I believe the latter.

Its easy to just know better than others because that is all it takes, just knowing. To actually do better and contribute something is a lot harder. Despite your belief that I (among others presumably) am a LiquidLab devote or zealot of some kind, in actuality I would love to see data that contradicted Martins testing, any data at all would be great in fact. I doubt anyone in the community would not want to see, there truly is not enough testing done by far, on most aspects of the hobby.

So by all means show the community how it is done properly. If and when that superior testing is then denied and disbelieved, in favour of LiquidLab, then you can truly label people as 'followers'. Until then it seems just a little premature to be passing judgement.

One of the themes of Martins evolution in testing method has been to try to produce more useful real world information. Its all very well to know that one rad will give you a 0.2C lower delta with a 500W load in the open air over another, but what does that mean in a closed environment like a PC case. In that respect Martins testing in all its forms has in my experience shown more real life application correlation than any other. That is not useless.

I suppose until we are blessed with the perfect testing regime implemented by yourself we will have to muddle along with useless.
 Kusanagi (21 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570K Asus Sabertooth Z77 EVGA GTX 780 SC Corsair Vengeance Pro CMY16GX3M2A2133C11 16GB
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 840 Pro 256GB X2 EK Supremacy Aqua Computer Aquaero 6 Pro Aqua Computer D5 USB
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer MPS 400 flow meter EK-CoolStream PE 360 EK-Coolstream PE 240 Noiseblocker Eloop B12-PS
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Vardar F2 EK-FC Titan Acetal & Nickel EK-RAM Monarch X4 Clean CSQ - Acetal+Nickel EK-D5 X-RES 140 CSQ
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Win 8.1 Pro 64 bit Samsung S27A750d LG E2290V-SN Silverstone Strider Plus 850W ST85F-P
Case
Corsair Obsidian 750D
 Kusanagi (21 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570K Asus Sabertooth Z77 EVGA GTX 780 SC Corsair Vengeance Pro CMY16GX3M2A2133C11 16GB
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 840 Pro 256GB X2 EK Supremacy Aqua Computer Aquaero 6 Pro Aqua Computer D5 USB
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer MPS 400 flow meter EK-CoolStream PE 360 EK-Coolstream PE 240 Noiseblocker Eloop B12-PS
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Vardar F2 EK-FC Titan Acetal & Nickel EK-RAM Monarch X4 Clean CSQ - Acetal+Nickel EK-D5 X-RES 140 CSQ
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Win 8.1 Pro 64 bit Samsung S27A750d LG E2290V-SN Silverstone Strider Plus 850W ST85F-P
Case
Corsair Obsidian 750D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire
One of the themes of Martins evolution in testing method has been to try to produce more useful real world information. Its all very well to know that one rad will give you a 0.2C lower delta with a 500W load in the open air over another, but what does that mean in a closed environment like a PC case. In that respect Martins testing in all its forms has in my experience shown more real life application correlation than any other. That is not useless.
This case? It doesn't resemble a case and if you read Martins comments he doesn't want it too either. "I am also considering making it much taller and enclosing the top portion with a similar 4″ outlet port to measure air out temps, but I’m hesitant to create any more bench air restriction although I suppose that wouldn’t be much different than an actual case."

Known diameter for air-in (or air-out, btw air volume/speed increase with temp) means he can measure airspeed and calculate the volume. Temp. probes for air-in and air-out means he can calculate the how much energy is transportet out of the case. That's why he have the case, not because he want to simulate a PC case.

Real life case testing of fans are fine. Real life case testing of radiator has no value since the only thing affected are the fans attached to the radiator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire
I suppose until we are blessed with the perfect testing regime implemented by yourself we will have to muddle along with useless.
I guess a dartboard, 5 darts, a spreadsheet table and some nice charts would impress you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF

This case? It doesn't resemble a case and if you read Martins comments he doesn't want it too either. "I am also considering making it much taller and enclosing the top portion with a similar 4″ outlet port to measure air out temps, but I’m hesitant to create any more bench air restriction although I suppose that wouldn’t be much different than an actual case."

Known diameter for air-in (or air-out, btw air volume/speed increase with temp) means he can measure airspeed and calculate the volume. Temp. probes for air-in and air-out means he can calculate the how much energy is transportet out of the case. That's why he have the case, not because he want to simulate a PC case.

"That not look like case, so is not like case" !!!!! .... Hmmm, sound and considered reasoning there. A well crafted and logical retort. My hat is off to you. Good job reading and repeating back the test design and concept too I guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPF

I guess a dartboard, 5 darts, a spreadsheet table and some nice charts would impress you.

Still waiting on that testing. ... Any testing, ....... Any testing at all.

Just imagine how impressed everyone will be then! It'll be just like when you are at the football, screaming advice at the players and just knowing deep inside that you could do better than them. Except in this case you will be able to prove it.
 Kusanagi (21 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570K Asus Sabertooth Z77 EVGA GTX 780 SC Corsair Vengeance Pro CMY16GX3M2A2133C11 16GB
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 840 Pro 256GB X2 EK Supremacy Aqua Computer Aquaero 6 Pro Aqua Computer D5 USB
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer MPS 400 flow meter EK-CoolStream PE 360 EK-Coolstream PE 240 Noiseblocker Eloop B12-PS
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Vardar F2 EK-FC Titan Acetal & Nickel EK-RAM Monarch X4 Clean CSQ - Acetal+Nickel EK-D5 X-RES 140 CSQ
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Win 8.1 Pro 64 bit Samsung S27A750d LG E2290V-SN Silverstone Strider Plus 850W ST85F-P
Case
Corsair Obsidian 750D
 Kusanagi (21 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5 3570K Asus Sabertooth Z77 EVGA GTX 780 SC Corsair Vengeance Pro CMY16GX3M2A2133C11 16GB
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 840 Pro 256GB X2 EK Supremacy Aqua Computer Aquaero 6 Pro Aqua Computer D5 USB
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
Aquacomputer MPS 400 flow meter EK-CoolStream PE 360 EK-Coolstream PE 240 Noiseblocker Eloop B12-PS
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Vardar F2 EK-FC Titan Acetal & Nickel EK-RAM Monarch X4 Clean CSQ - Acetal+Nickel EK-D5 X-RES 140 CSQ
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Win 8.1 Pro 64 bit Samsung S27A750d LG E2290V-SN Silverstone Strider Plus 850W ST85F-P
Case
Corsair Obsidian 750D
This thread is getting interesting. He thinks he's right
 Ayase Eli (20 items) Testbench (10 items) MC Server (13 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP
CoolingMonitorKeyboardPower
Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200
Phanteks Enthoo Pro Logitech G102 Tesoro Aegis X3 Virtus.Pro AKG K7XX
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700k Gigabyte Z170X-UD5 Depends Depends
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i
PowerMouse
FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 Pro CoolerMaster G750M NZXT Switch 810
 Ayase Eli (20 items) Testbench (10 items) MC Server (13 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1700 ASRock X370 SLI Killer Zotac GTX1070 "FE" with ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Crucial BallistiX Sport LP 16GB 8x2GB
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Zotac SSD Premium 480GB OCZ Vector 180 480GB Hitachi 7K3000 3TB 7200rpm ID Cooling Frostflow 240L
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
ID Cooling Frostflow 240G Phanteks F140MP x2 CoolerMaster Silencio FP120 x2 Phanteks F140SP
CoolingMonitorKeyboardPower
Delta AFB1212SH x2 Dell U2713HM CM Storm MECH FSP Aurum PT 1200
Phanteks Enthoo Pro Logitech G102 Tesoro Aegis X3 Virtus.Pro AKG K7XX
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700k Gigabyte Z170X-UD5 Depends Depends
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorKeyboard
Plextor M5S Depends Dell U2312HM CM Storm Quickfire Rapid-i
PowerMouse
FSP Aurum PT 1200 CM Storm Mizar
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600 4GHz Gigabyte Z77X D3H Intel HD Graphics 2000 obviously Kingston HyperX Genesis 4X4GB DDR3 1600
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Intel 530 240GB Deepcool Captain 240 Arctic Cooling Bionix 140 Delta AFB1212L
OSPowerCase
Windows 10 Pro CoolerMaster G750M NZXT Switch 810
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire
Just imagine how impressed everyone will be then! It'll be just like when you are at the football, screaming advice at the players and just knowing deep inside that you could do better than them.
You got it all wrong - as usual. I'm not "at the football". I'm the referee and you are the ball.
I second rx240, or most double thick rads would work.
 ThinkPad W520 (9 items) Dell PowerEdge C1100 (8 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 3.7 GHz 1.32v Asus P5E3 Premium/WiFi-AP @n MSI GTX 680 Lightning 4GB Corsair XMS3 DHXNV DDR3-1454 9-9-9-24-2T
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
OCZ Vertex 4 256 GB Asus DVD-RW Zalman 9700 Windows 7 Professional
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
NEC MultiSync PA271W 2560x1440 Logitech MK320 Silverstone ZM1200M Lian-Li PC-V2110
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Core i7 2720QM @ 2.2 GHz Quadro 1000M 8GB DDR3-1333 500GB 7200RPM
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
DVD-RW Windows 7 Professional 64 bit 1920x1080 Matte 15.6" 170W Brick
Mouse
Microsoft Ergonomic Potato
CPURAMHard DriveHard Drive
Dual Intel Xeon L5520 2.26 GHz 48 GB Samsung DDR3-1066 250 GB Seagate Barracuda ES.2 7200 RPM 2 TB Western Digital Green
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
3 TB Seagate Barracuda 7200 RPM Ubuntu Server 13.04 650W Delta PSU 1U Rackmount
 ThinkPad W520 (9 items) Dell PowerEdge C1100 (8 items)
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 3.7 GHz 1.32v Asus P5E3 Premium/WiFi-AP @n MSI GTX 680 Lightning 4GB Corsair XMS3 DHXNV DDR3-1454 9-9-9-24-2T
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
OCZ Vertex 4 256 GB Asus DVD-RW Zalman 9700 Windows 7 Professional
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
NEC MultiSync PA271W 2560x1440 Logitech MK320 Silverstone ZM1200M Lian-Li PC-V2110
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Core i7 2720QM @ 2.2 GHz Quadro 1000M 8GB DDR3-1333 500GB 7200RPM
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
DVD-RW Windows 7 Professional 64 bit 1920x1080 Matte 15.6" 170W Brick
Mouse
Microsoft Ergonomic Potato
CPURAMHard DriveHard Drive
Dual Intel Xeon L5520 2.26 GHz 48 GB Samsung DDR3-1066 250 GB Seagate Barracuda ES.2 7200 RPM 2 TB Western Digital Green
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
3 TB Seagate Barracuda 7200 RPM Ubuntu Server 13.04 650W Delta PSU 1U Rackmount
Aye, looks like performance pcs doesn't stock the rx240 anymore, ut60 it is then! thanks guys
 Millennium (12 items)
 Millennium (12 items)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
Return Home
Back to Forum: Water Cooling
• 240mm Rad for silent fans
Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › 240mm Rad for silent fans