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[VC] AMD Radeon R9 290X with Hawaii GPU pictured, has 512-bit 4GB Memory - Page 102

post #1011 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

All speculation I figure that it won't need more than 2.0 x16 and even that is a over assessment.

Perhaps. I think 3.0x16 may be required for AMD's hardware frame-pacing fix - by getting all the data across really, really fast it has more time with which to make sure that frames are delivered regularly.
post #1012 of 1055
John Carmack who I still highly respect said that there is a possibility of a good boost from Mantle and Sony/Microsoft may get scared of it (he does not have a personal stake on this since he is comitted to OpenGL PC and mobile games for the next years).

The most interesting thing about it is that he mainly saw a console related backlash, not an abstract PC or NVIDIA backlash.

It makes sense since even if AMD does dominate on the consoles, and even if that domination affects other sub-industries, it will be a highly contained situation (even if the money are a lot), that will very possibly both not metastasize to the next version of the consoles after these ones, or to the PC and other open platforms.
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post #1013 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

a GT230 with a core duo processor LOL

Is actually probably slightly faster than the Xbox 360 or PS3 from hardware alone.

Even a modern IGP is going to destroy the consoles in terms of hardware performance...Yet optimization totally does nothing. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moragg View Post

But... if console hardware is that bad...

Mantle with similar levels of optimisation would crush the Titan drool.gif

I'd personally wager that Mantle will give 20%-50% performance over plain DX11, because there's other optimizations and the like consoles have that even Mantle likely can't recreate due to still needing some flexibility to run on a Pitcairn vs a Hawaii for example.
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post #1014 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Is actually probably slightly faster than the Xbox 360 or PS3 from hardware alone.

Even a modern IGP is going to destroy the consoles in terms of hardware performance...Yet optimization totally does nothing. rolleyes.gif
I'd personally wager that Mantle will give 20%-50% performance over plain DX11, because there's other optimizations and the like consoles have that even Mantle likely can't recreate due to still needing some flexibility to run on a Pitcairn vs a Hawaii for example.
Mantle segregation per die I want to believe.

On a side note when Nvidia said Volta would have on chip vram I was like "how is that new the PS3 already has it and that employs a Nvidia gpu"
Nvidia should've tried to get that low margin deal even if they needed to only do the gpu part since they don't have the IP for a cpu (arm isn't really an option here)
post #1015 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post

Build a PC roughly equivalent to the Xbox 360 or PS3 in terms of specs, try to run recent games at console like settings and then tell me that having the ability to optimize past DX still does nothing.

Let's be honest though here, or let's learn something. The advantage of having a lower level API on a restricted set of specs is not only the result of having a lower level API, but also having a restricted set of specs. Also, the skill of the programmer isn't just the API, e.g. John Carmack was secretly using basic assembly and C tricks to do math (that are considered revolutionary in the history of video gaming).
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post #1016 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Benchmarks just in




ROFL. biggrin.gif
post #1017 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

Let's be honest though here, or let's learn something. The advantage of having a lower level API on a restricted set of specs is not only the result of having a lower level API, but also having a restricted set of specs. Also, the skill of the programmer isn't just the API, e.g. John Carmack was secretly using basic assembly and C tricks to do math (that are considered revolutionary in the history of video gaming).

Exactly, in Mantles case it comes from AMD being able to make an API perfectly tailored to GCN in general rather than the more generalized DX (That has to run on Fermi, VLIW5, VLIW4, Kepler, GCN, Maxwell, etc) and just like how AMD is now using hardware frame pacing in the R9 290X, I would not be surprised if nVidia makes their own version to be released with Maxwell or its refresh.
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post #1018 of 1055
I start wondering what Mantle will do. I suspect it is mainly about managing cores and sub-cores and other such contraptions on the die. Like "use this segment to do that and then wait on that segment to do something else" which sounds convoluted that will need high skill in multi-processing programming and the like.

edit: That might probably indicate that it will be quite ineffective if the programmer doesn't know the hardware isn't exactly the same (not even the same AMD type but slower maybe).
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post #1019 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

John Carmack who I still highly respect said that there is a possibility of a good boost from Mantle and Sony/Microsoft may get scared of it (he does not have a personal stake on this since he is comitted to OpenGL PC and mobile games for the next years).

The most interesting thing about it is that he mainly saw a console related backlash, not an abstract PC or NVIDIA backlash.

It makes sense since even if AMD does dominate on the consoles, and even if that domination affects other sub-industries, it will be a highly contained situation (even if the money are a lot), that will very possibly both not metastasize to the next version of the consoles after these ones, or to the PC and other open platforms.
It can be end of MS.

Tablets ate into theirs market, and now there would be competitive API, which is designed mainly for HW interactions and for games. And can do much more than DX11.2
post #1020 of 1055
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

I start wondering what Mantle will do. I suspect it is mainly about managing cores and sub-cores and other such contraptions on the die. Like "use this segment to do that and then wait on that segment to do something else" which sounds convoluted that will need high skill in multi-processing programming and the like.

edit: That might probably indicate that it will be quite ineffective if the programmer doesn't know the hardware isn't exactly the same (not even the same AMD type but slower maybe).

I think it's just about being able to code a process to be more efficient. I remember seeing a Haskell program to code sorting a list. It was very short and neat, but computationally much more expensive than the same function written in (i think) C++ . The latter program was much more complicated and longer and would require much more knowledge to write, but it was much more computationally efficient.

So (I think) Mantle gives devs access to the absolute basic commands (or very close to this) so they can "arrange" them in the most efficient way for rendering. Unlike DX9, where very abstract ideas (draw a line) are interpreted into GCN language - like all translations this will not be as good as if someone wrote it in GCN language originally, and it requires CPU resources.
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