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AMD MANTLE Discussion Thread

160K views 3K replies 239 participants last post by  Offler 
#1 ·
Fresh off the GPU14 event/livestream, I thought it would be a good idea to create a thread dedicated to AMD's MANTLE.





What we know:

- MANTLE is a low level API for the GCN architecture. Its main goal is to bring "that robust Console-like performance to the PC" (in the words of DICE's Johan Andersson).

- Is being built by AMD in close collaboration with DICE/EA

- Battlefield 4 will be the 1st game to use MANTLE, not out of the box, will receive free update around late December.

- Lots of focus on CPU performance (small batch problem non existent, low overhead, perfect parallelism, etc).

- Highly optimized GPU usage (full access to hardware capabilities, lots of low level optimizations, new rendering techniques).

- Early Hardware & Software requirements:

CPU: Any modern CPU.
GPU: GCN card (HD 7000 series and up)
OS: Windows 7 or Windows 8
Mantle enabled game of course.

What we don't know:

- The big elephant in the room: Solid performance numbers, while everything we know about Mantle right now sounds like a clear upgrade over Direct3D and OpenGL, we still have no idea how this will play out. I could see it going in a couple of ways:

* The completely over the top/optimistic scenario: Mantle will increase performance way past our expectations, something unlike anything we've seen before.

* The more realistic one: Mantle will bring that console like robustness in performance closing the gap between min FPS and max FPS making Mantle enabled games much more enjoyable. Performance increases in the ~15% range.

* Worst case scenario: Mantle completely flops, performance increases in the single digits, maybe some stability issues?, etc etc.

- Will AMD really let NVIDIA/Intel use it?, while they've said over and over again that Mantle has the necessary abstraction/high level stuff built in into it for easier compatibility with other vendors, politics will play a big role here according to Johan Andersson, he's already come out saying that AMD + DICE will have important meetings over the month or so to discuss Mantle's real future.
 
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#3 ·
In the past they also said that HD7000 GPUs were going to get a DX 11.2 driver update and now one of the slides during the presentation said that the R9 are the first GPUs to support DX 11.2, I'm getting a bit worried here as a 7000 user AMD could have abandoned us already
 
#4 ·
AMD keynote recap.Similar to Xbox One architecture revealed. All according to a plan. MANTLE is good

rwilmarth: So yeah, First thing they showed, was dying light, Xbox one exclusive, first.
Second the 290 has been stated more than 5 tflops, and 6 billion transistors, in 424 mm2
Ms has 5 billion transistors in 363 mm2 with an extra 150mm filled with more.
Doing quick Maths, 6billion= 5tflops, then 5 billion = 4.2
True audio sounds just like shape, mantle is mono, and at one point they mentioned ms as partner then quickly changed subject. And also mantle will only work with windows.
1. Mantle <--> Mono
2. AMD True Audio <---> Shape
3. AMD scaling wattage from 1W to 1KW (for server) <--> Power Island
4. Both confirming the 4K resoultion, X1 also confirmed 4K not just for video
5. both Specifically designed for DX 11.2 and beyond

Source :http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/137681.html
 
#5 ·
Really good idea. A lot of games are suffering from low CPU usage and performance.
 
#6 ·
Is it me or dying light is a buffed up mirror's edge with zombies? I like it though biy aint getting near xbox 1 for some time

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabloplayer75 View Post

I'm interested if Mantle will create an atmosphere where Nvidia & it's massive userbase get the shaft. Could this help monopolize the market?
Thats one theory of what could happen.

Another would be the same bs that happened with 3DFX and its Glide API back in the day. From what I remember it was a nonsense of fragmented api's. Direct3D, OpenGL and Glide all fighting to be the renderer of choice for game developers. However I know a lot of games began to include all 3 as a choice but still some bigger games didnt. This basically alienated anyone who didnt have a 3DFX voodoo card if Glide was the only API the game was coded for. The only other option would have been software rendering which is not accelerated by hardware and would run slow and look choppy.

Either way, the consumer is the one that suffers, well ok Nvidia does too but I doubt they would let this happen and not fight back. Yes AMD users get amazing performance but at the cost of alienating Nvidia customers.

Part of me wants to say AMD wouldnt keep it proprietary since TRESSFX wasnt locked down to GCN cards but was optimized for their computing units instead.

AMD has a better record of not cannibalizing features and keeping them closed source. Well that we know of anyway.

As a PC gamer this makes me excited that we can have "direct to the metal" rendering like the consoles but as an Nvidia user it makes me worried.

Will have to wait and see.

P.S. If i understand correctly, Mantle would have to include a wrapper for direct x to be able to transcode directx calls into Mantle calls to send to the mantle driver. The game is primarily written for the direct x api so the wrapper would be the only logical solution.
 
#11 ·
Games would have to be coded for opengl first and then they would have to be transcoded to mantle hardware calls in Linux. Also AMD would have to want to supply mantle for Linux drivers too.

If only valve could persuade more devs to code for opengl then Linux might start to look like a plausible future.
 
#12 ·
Thanks for that analysis! We are on the same page regarding excitement but hesitation at the same time. I have been using Nvidia cards (and intel chips) for a very long time- i'm not sure I'd like to switch.

That said* I absolutely will switch if I feel that AMD will give me more value and innovation. Disregarding loyalty is the only way to force manufacturers to continue to make leaps and compete to earn your business.

One of my Nvidia-only friends told me that Nvidia cards can display certain graphics that a Raedon card cannot- the way he put it was "you might get a few more FPS from Raedon - but you will have a lower caliber picture on your screen as well." -- can anyone bring some clarity to this issue?

I'm really disappointed we didn't get any info if these cards run hot/consume a lot of power / overclock any different than previous cards.
 
#13 ·
#14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by benben84 View Post

MANTLE sounds like the beginning of the end for Microsoft gaming and the beginning of a new Linux gaming era? Valve/AMD/DICE/EA seem to be pushing for this so Nvidia may need to jump on or get left behind...
If they didn't already know, Nvidia management is probably having a breakdown right now. Their software engineers are about to start working overtime... and they'll respond soon enough.
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by benben84 View Post

MANTLE sounds like the beginning of the end for Microsoft gaming and the beginning of a new Linux gaming era? Valve/AMD/DICE/EA seem to be pushing for this so Nvidia may need to jump on or get left behind...
My thought's exactly.

I find it extremely interesting how AMD is approaching "next gen"

tons of amd only software surprises me, with they way they talk about PhysX.
 
#17 ·
Well looks like Mantel will indeed be for linux as well. Gabe Newell just got his secret weapon against Microsoft!

A quote from Anandtech's Coverage of the AMD GPU Showcase,
Quote:
06:29PM EDT - The proposal: Mantle. A low level high performance console style graphics API for PCs. It's being built by AMD. It's cross platform, but Windows initially. Battlefield 4 is the pilot project & first user of Mantle.
Possibly Mac as well? Who knows.

Also I guess there doesnt need to be a wrapper afterall. BF4 will just be directly coded for Mantle and Directx from the get go(I guess its been in the works this whole time). This is crazy because that means all they would have to do would be create the Mantle renderer universal renderer which would work on Windows and linux. Then you just need the Mantle driver to be coded for each OS and you are good to go!
 
#18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by djinferno806 View Post

Well looks like Mantel will indeed be for linux as well. Gabe Newell just got his secret weapon against Microsoft!

A quote from Anandtech's Coverage of the AMD GPU Showcase,
Possibly Mac as well? Who knows.

Also I guess there doesnt need to be a wrapper afterall. BF4 will just be directly coded for Mantle and Directx from the get go(I guess its been in the works this whole time). This is crazy because that means all they would have to do would be create the Mantle renderer universal renderer which would work on Windows and linux. Then you just need the Mantle driver to be coded for each OS and you are good to go!
Didn't see the cross platform part :/

As carmack tweeted, MS isn't gonna be happy about linux/mantle replacing Windows and DX... but their console (along with Sony's) uses an AMD SOC, and Steam is THE Windows game distribution service atm. Origin/EA is leading the mantle charge, and after GFWL, no-one would touch a Windows distribution/drm service with a pointy stick. But their push into mobile isn't going as well as they hoped, so I imagine MS isn't gonna let go of Windows/DX dominance that easily.

Meanwhile, Nvidia's linux gaming superiority is in jeopardy, and the whole idea of a popular AMD-specific graphics API must be terrifying. They could introduce their own API (fragmentation, blech), they could adopt AMD's API (unlikely, as far as I know), or they could jump ship and focus on compute and mobile (where they're currently facing some VERY stiff competition from Intel and Qualcomm). Sticking with DX or OpenGL could work, but they would need to improve the API a bit.

OK, I'm cooking ALOT of popcorn now. The next few months are going to be VERY interesting.
 
#19 ·
Bro, there isnt enough popcorn in the world for whats about to happen in the next few months. I've officially suspended my PC upgrade until the dust settles. If Mantle ends up being the GOD API i want it to be but only for AMD, a switch over to the red side might be in order.
 
#20 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by djinferno806 View Post

Bro, there isnt enough popcorn in the world for whats about to happen in the next few months. I've officially suspended my PC upgrade until the dust settles. If Mantle ends up being the GOD API i want it to be but only for AMD, a switch over to the red side might be in order.
Looking at the BF4 annoucement and at Nvidia's facebook page, mantle and SteamOS are getting some traction. If they catch on and bring linux along with it, the tech world is about to ruin iself!

I'm breaking out more muchies! Also, I feel better about my 7950 purchase now...
 
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by djinferno806 View Post

Bro, there isnt enough popcorn in the world for whats about to happen in the next few months. I've officially suspended my PC upgrade until the dust settles. If Mantle ends up being the GOD API i want it to be but only for AMD, a switch over to the red side might be in order.
I hope to god this doesn't happen. At first we will be happy. Give it 15 years, and we will curse the monopoly that has stifled the need for the only dominant GPU provider to innovate. Competition is the only reason we even have the graphics we have today.
 
#22 ·
It'd be nice if Nvidia hopped on the Mantle bandwagon but I doubt it. Nvidia likes proprietary tech so expect them to announce their own version in a few months. With a marketing spin of course, since that's all Nvidia's got going now.
 
#23 ·
#24 ·
Honestly, I don't know what to hope for. I was really hoping that BOTH AMD and nVidia would back OpenGL, and more gave developers would support it. That would allow people to more easily pick one API (which is a lot more open than DirectX, which Microsoft rules with an iron hand) and be able to run on either Windows or Linux.

Now with MANTLE, it's basically going to get even more fragmented and screw things up even more, and God help the gaming world if nVidia does something similar and we are left with 4 "standards", between 2 OS's and 2 card makers.

But if BOTH AMD and nVidia run on Mantle, then it could be the beginning of the end for DirectX, which would be good, just so long as Mantle will run on both Windows and Linux.

And don't even get me going about Mantle and Electronic Arts. That just scares me to death right there.
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvese View Post

It'd be nice if Nvidia hopped on the Mantle bandwagon but I doubt it. Nvidia likes proprietary tech so expect them to announce their own version in a few months. With a marketing spin of course, since that's all Nvidia's got going now.
yeah...that's all nvidia has going now, now that amd released little to no info on their new gpus except in a firemark benchmark where it fails to beat Nvidias scores, no pricing, etc. Nvidia is screwed.
 
#26 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcamaross View Post

yeah...that's all nvidia has going now, now that amd released little to no info on their new gpus except in a firemark benchmark where it fails to beat Nvidias scores, no pricing, etc. Nvidia is screwed.
It's not like they're in trouble or anything, but mantle is clearly a problem for them... They know an OS/API revolution is brewing, as they're supporting steamOS
 
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