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post #741 of 2769
We saw what happens even when one company has an extended architectural advantage over the other-- huge price gouging, API lockout, and limited customer choice. I can't fathom why anyone would want either company to fail, or sit back and spout off about the schadenfreude from the peanut gallery, if they believe at all in any kind of consumer choice. Go Nvidia. Go AMD. And Intel too, they may have a few more tricks up their sleeve as well. Hell, they may be the sleeping giant that we really need to worry about.

Could you imagine if there was only one dominant graphics card maker? I can. See Creative vs. Aureal. For audio, we're stuck in the dark ages, where we had vastly better technology 15 years ago.

It's in Nvidia's best interest to implement Mantle, as it's ultimately a pro-developer technology. Will they? Doubtful, they seem to have a very strong corporate hubris and probably wouldn't even try, but it sure would be great for everybody-- including themselves-- if they did.
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post #742 of 2769
this is the pregame show. I'm extremely interested what Nvidia's reaction will be when the market share starts shrinking & those 15$ shares start dropping.
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post #743 of 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by skupples View Post

Yupp! Fan boy'ism is bad for business really. Wishing death upon a company are wishes of the ignorant. Also, federal law wouldn't allow for just one company to exist, as it would violate monopoly laws. Having it as a duopoly is bad enough.

I always say this! If Nvidia shut down, you could be charged about £1,000 for a high end gaming card since no competition will challenge that price. I doubt Intel, ARM, Pine, IBM ext could make something to challenge current Gen or even next Gen cards. If one goes, we all go.
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post #744 of 2769
almost as bad as fanbois wishing mantle to fail. In reality they should be hoping it's a smashing success.
post #745 of 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

almost as bad as fanbois wishing mantle to fail. In reality they should be hoping it's a smashing success.


exactly so far it is the only chance we got of getting away from Microsofts stranglehold with DirectX which has been crippling and holding Dev's back for years and is why we have not had many advancements gaming wise for years. That is also why the Dev's have been begging and asking for something like Mantle since late 90's.

DirectX is literally limiting graphics capability in a large amount batch counts and drawcalls are examples and Mantle offers around 10x more of both with less performance impact.

DirectX maxxes out at 15k batch counts and Mantle offers 100K+ batch counts which is the amount of objects on screen and Mantle offers 80K+ with same or less performance hit as DirectX's running 15k so that is something very important to remember.

I watched the oxide test they got 50k+ batch count with fx 8350 at 2ghz per core with Mantle and it still was running perfectly and was still GPU limited with a R9 290X that is very impressive considering 15k with DirectX has biggest and baddest CPU's crapping theyre pants from Intel or AMD. To sum it up DirectX isnt very efficient from a performance / efficiency approach that has to do with the amount of hoops stuff has to jump thru and many times have to jump thru same hoop 4 or more times aka inefficient and also alot more resource usage such as Vram / system ram / GPU core / CPU on DirectX vs Mantle. Mantle in general has ability to have alot better graphics and use way less resources to do so meening better performance and efficiency.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 1/24/14 at 4:50pm
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post #746 of 2769
also have to remember that 99% of direct X games use @ most, 2 cores 1 thread, unless MASSIVE amounts of work are put into the engine.

I'll be one of the first green bleeding people to jump ship, if mantle A.) is more than a 10% performance gain, & B.) more than two engines line up to adapt it.

My main interest in Mantle is Chris Roberts intentions of implementing it in Star Citizen. Though, I would really like to see what AMD has lined up for it's next architecture, the actual GCN 2.0.
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post #747 of 2769
You say GCN 2.0 in 2015 or something but R9 290 and R9 290X has that and it is here now =>

1- New Compute Unit instructions, including FLAT instructions for HSA memory model compliance. Flat (generic) addressing support will be critical to enabling effective use of pointers within a heterogeneous compute context. Coupled with that is a subtle change to how the ACEs (compute queues) work, allowing GPUs to have more ACEs and more queues in each ACE, versus the hard limit of 2 we’ve seen in Southern Islands. So it comes to second point.

2- Asynchorous Compute Engines increased to 8 from 2, and each of it now can queue 8 instead of 2, so 8*8=64 compute queues>2*2=4 compute queues.

3- Also some new calculation instructions, including a Masked Quad Sum of Absolute Differences (MQSAD) and some FP64 floor/ceiling/truncation vector functions.

4- Full Address Translation Cache implementation, which allows both data and code to/from Compute Units to be addressed directly with the process address space (no pinning restriction), apart from the GPU's own virtual address spaces. This has to be backed by PCIe ATS 1.1, which is implemented by AMD in IOMMUv2.

5- Ability to access the coherent, system address space directly. In earlier architectures, that space can only be accessed after the particular region needed is mapped into GPU's virtual address space and with no coherency guarantees.

6- It has twice the ROPs, from 32 to 64. It can handle four primitive operations per clock rather than two, which means at least its tessellation performance should be higher.
post #748 of 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnedLife View Post

You say GCN 2.0 in 2015 or something but R9 290 and R9 290X has that and it is here now =>

1- New Compute Unit instructions, including FLAT instructions for HSA memory model compliance. Flat (generic) addressing support will be critical to enabling effective use of pointers within a heterogeneous compute context. Coupled with that is a subtle change to how the ACEs (compute queues) work, allowing GPUs to have more ACEs and more queues in each ACE, versus the hard limit of 2 we’ve seen in Southern Islands. So it comes to second point.

2- Asynchorous Compute Engines increased to 8 from 2, and each of it now can queue 8 instead of 2, so 8*8=64 compute queues>2*2=4 compute queues.

3- Also some new calculation instructions, including a Masked Quad Sum of Absolute Differences (MQSAD) and some FP64 floor/ceiling/truncation vector functions.

4- Full Address Translation Cache implementation, which allows both data and code to/from Compute Units to be addressed directly with the process address space (no pinning restriction), apart from the GPU's own virtual address spaces. This has to be backed by PCIe ATS 1.1, which is implemented by AMD in IOMMUv2.

5- Ability to access the coherent, system address space directly. In earlier architectures, that space can only be accessed after the particular region needed is mapped into GPU's virtual address space and with no coherency guarantees.

6- It has twice the ROPs, from 32 to 64. It can handle four primitive operations per clock rather than two, which means at least its tessellation performance should be higher.




I was told 290-290X is just the first line of GCN2 and it is basically there to help with the Mantle project and doesnt really reflect towards the true GCN2.0+ coming later. The next wave is suppose to make the R9 290-290X look very primitive they went with the GCN2 basic architecture but didnt unlock its full potential and even held it back with the 290-290X for very obvious reasons. They didnt want to show theyre secrets or full capability / potential but wanted to have the basics worked into the Mantle project for compatability reasons upon actual launch of GCN2.0+.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 1/25/14 at 11:48am
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post #749 of 2769
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcooperjr View Post

I was told 290-290X is just the first line of GCN2 and it is basically there to help with the Mantle project and doesnt really reflect towards the true GCN2.0+ coming later the next wave is suppose to make the R9 290-290X look very primitive they went with the GCN2 basic architecture but didnt unlock its full potential and even held it back with the 290-290X for very obvious reasons they didnt want to show theyre secrets or full capability / potential but wanted to have the basics worked into the Mantle project for compatability reason upon actuall launch of GCN2.0+.
Holy run-on batman!

Anyways, I think it will be interesting to see how an entire line, not just one new card will change things, and with new architecture. I don't know how big of a deal it is to see it on just one card, seeing it on multiple cards and at more affordable price ranges is what will change things, regardless of it this is the full GCN2.
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post #750 of 2769
I got insider info, the next version is going to better than the current version. Shh don't tell anyone it's a secret.
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